Re: Res: [tied] Etymology of Rome - h1rh1-em-/h1rh1-o:m-

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@...> wrote:

>
> On 2007-03-14 07:45, Piotr Gasiorowski wrote:
> > On 2007-03-14 00:37, alexandru_mg3 wrote:
> >
> >> I will start with the 'worst thing': No. Piotr, you are not

right.

> >>
> >> The (H)RHV- roots are ones of the most problematic PIE roots:
> > ...
> >> For the (H)RHV-sequences (initial position) the outputs are:
> >> a) the H is simply lost
> >> b) the laryngeal H will be subject of the laryngeal-

metathesis

> >>
> >> If you know some contra-examples please post them here...
> >
> > Laryngeal metathesis in *(C)rHV- sequences?? What do you mean? *

(C)rVH-?

> > No such thing is attested. The PIE resonant was normally syllabic

in

> > such sequences, and after the loss of the laryngeal the outcome

was

> > phoneticaly *(C)r.rV- or *(C)&rV- (the difference is largely a

matter of

> > a given author's favoured notation). The further development is
> > branch-specific. Cf. Lat. haru-(spex) < *g^Hr.H-u- (Skt.

hirá: 'vein'),

> > Skt. giráti, Slavic *z^IroN < *gWr.h3-é/ó- 'devour', Lat.

varus 'pimple'

> > < *wr.H-o- (Lith. viras 'tapeworm cyst').
>
> P.S. Judging from your example (Russ. nyt') and your formulation of

the

> possibilities, your ideas were inspired by Darden's 1990 article on
> laryngeals and syllabicity in BSl and IE. You should be warned that
> Darden's examples involve "long-diphthong" forms of the supposed

shape

> *nHu-C-, *nHi-C-, where laryngeal metathesis IS admissible (if the
> analysis is correct). Initial syllabic resonants in the zero grade

of

> *ReC- roots (possibly including *R.H-V-) were avoided perhaps

already in

> PIE, hence their frequent restructuring in the branches, but note

that

> in *h1r.H-V- the resonant is NOT initial.
>
> Piotr
>

I confirm Piotr. I started with Darden article (some times ago).

But usually I tried to check with examples what I read.

So next I really started to check: and I take one by one especially
the Sanskrit derivations (Lubotsky) but also the Greek, Baltic ones
etc...

Some comments on what I will write below:
There is no Root starting with r (not R but r) only with Hr-

My conclusions:

We need to make a clear distinction among the following sequences:

1. CRHV => the resonant is vocalized

2. WRHV => the resonant is vocalized

3. HRHV => the resonant is NOT VOCALIZED

4. RHV => the resonant is NOT VOCALIZED

My NOTE on 3-4: I couldn't find any example (I mean a single
derivation in any PIE language) showing me an initial sequence HRHV
(or RHV) where the resonant is vocalized.

Of course, I'm not an expert to know all the cases: but you need
to give me a single example showing us that the resonant is vocalized
in a HRHV cluster.

Otherwise, I will continue to sustain that there isn't sucha case.


Marius