--- In
cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Wordingham" <richard@...> wrote:
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Wordingham" <richard@>
wrote:
>
> > > Torsten:
> > > > These languages appear as substrates in Germanic, therefore
> > > > they don't have to be analyzed as Germanic.
> > >
> > > So? We're not looking at a loan from one of these languages.
>
> > You must have sources of information I don't have access to.
>
> We're talking about a derivation from something like PIE *tems-. You
> (Torsten) said, 'I can't remember if it's Kuhn or Vennemann who
> posits an Italic-like *dh > þ, d > *d, *t > *t for some dialect on
> the Rhine, from where it might have been picked up.' What have I
> missed? It seems that the only origin for *þ in this word family is
> Germanic.
Møller operates with alternations of stops in his posited ancestor of
PIE and Semitic which is reflected as similar alternations in those
languages:
"
Besonders zwingend spricht für die enge Zusammengehörigkeit der
voridg. und der vorsemit. Grundsprache die Übereinstimmung der
indogerm. Alternationen (der von E. Zupitza KZ. 37, 387ff.
nachgewiesenen 'Doubletten', der Noreenschen 'Spuren indogermanischer
Lautgesetze', s. SI. 134ff.) mit dem semitischen Wechsel emphatischer
und nichtemphatischer Konsonanten, indem (s. die Lauttabelle)
1) der idg. Wechsel Tenuis : Media dem semitischen Wechsel
(explosiver oder spirantischer) nicht emphatischer Lenes mit
emphatischen Lenes, des g mit k. (< ursemit. G.), des 3 mit Y. (< 3.),
des d (< d´ (< vorsemit. g^) mit (arab.) d. (< d´. < vorsemit. G^.),
des d (< vorsemit. d) mit (arab.) z. (< vorsemit. D.), des ð mit ð.
(zusammengefallen mit arab. d), entspricht;
2) der idg. Wechsel der Medialaspiraten im Anlaut mit Tenues, im
Inlaut mit Medien dem semitischen Wechsel der emphatischen k. (<
K.), s. (wo < t.s. < t.' < vorsemit. K.^), t., b (< ursemit. P.) mit
den nicht emphatischen k, s^´ (< ts^´ < t' < vorsemit. k^), t, p;
3) der idg. Wechsel Medialaspirata : Tenuis (im Inlaut wie im
Anlaut) dem semit. Wechsel nicht emphatischer und emphatischer
stimmloser Spiranten, wie des H. (wo < X.) mit x.
"
Not exactly transparent.
He posits two pre-IE-Semitic alternating roots,
*d-m-:*D.-m- -> PIE *t-m-:*d-m-, Semitic *d-m-:*d.-m-
*t-m-:*T.-m- -> PIE *t-m-:*dh-m-, Semitic *t-m-:*t.m-
and derives his PIE *t-m- (called 1*t-m-) from both, which must be an
error.
If however PIE *t-m- and *dh-m- are related, we could have dh- > T- >
f- (as in Italic) in some language on the Rhine and Germanic borrowing
from it.
> > > (or anticipation of English Cockney, if you prefer),
> > > and compare it > to Modern English _pottage_ > _porridge_
>
> > or ME parrok > paddock; by some coincidence both are Nordwestblock
> > (initial p-).
>
> Possibly - the 'pot' family has been tentatively derived from Latin
> _po:tus_ 'drink'. The word _pottage_ is basically French in origin,
> so an ultimate Nordwestblock origin would be irrelevant.
'pot' is common in Germanic, but can't be Germanic, both because of p-
and the T-T- root shape.
Further, that -age suffix is supposedly from Low Latin *-aticum, but I
wonder. It seems to show a fondness for Nordwestblock words (package,
baggage), it appears in Danish, even in dialects, with unlikely words
(buskads "shrubbery", stillads "scaffolding" (Du. stellage, to stellen
"put"?), morads "bog, marsh"), so I wonder if it's not also NWBlock,
which would make pottage/porridge NWBlock-internal too.
> > Suetonius mentions that one of the
> > emperor Claudius' ancestors, Clodius, had been tribune of the
> > people.
>
> Are you sure about that relationship? The closest I can come is
> that Publius Clodius Pulcher was the first husband of Fulvia, Mark
> Antony's third wife. (Mark Antony was the Emperor Claudius's
> grandfather by his fourth wife.) Claudius and Clodius were kin,
> nominally descended from Appius Claudius Caecus.
You're right, I should have said relative.
Torsten