[tied] Re: From words to dates: Water into wine, mathemagic or phyl

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Ryan" <proto-language@...>
wrote:

>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: mkelkar2003<mailto:swatimkelkar@...>
> To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 3:44 PM
> Subject: [tied] Re: From words to dates: Water into wine,

mathemagic or phylogenetic inference?

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> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:cybalist@yahoogroups.com>,

"tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@> wrote:

> >
> > > > The horsemen in Europe are there in the
> > > > archaeological record, general death and destruction.
> > >
> > >
> > > Death and destruction? Please do not tell me we are back to the
> > > barberic nomadic Aryan hordes destroying the dark skinned
> > > inhabitants of the "Indus" valley civilzation aka the Aryan

Invasion

> > > Theory. Your Sankritist colleagues over on Indo-Eurasian have

done

> > > every thing possible to deny that they support such violent
> > > conquest. Now they are talking about Indo-Aryan peaceful

migrations

> > > or trickle ins.
> >
> > I repeat:
> > The horsemen in Europe are there in the archaeological record,

general

> > death and destruction.
> >
> > Now try to read it properly this time.
> >
> >
> > Torsten
>
> So these violent horsemen of Europe brought the "Indo-Aryan" languages
> riding chariots to South Asia. " Aka the blond aryan superman
> butchering the dark skinned dasas of the Rig Veda.
>
> M. Kelkar
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> ***
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> First, Mr. Kelkar, let me say that I personally appreciate the

highly interesting information which you discover on the Internet, and
kindly furnish to this list. Whether one shares your views or not, new
information is always helpful.

>
>
> But I would like to also say that that framing the question in

outmoded and discredited ideological trappings ("blond supermen" and
"dark-skinned dasas") serves no useful purpose; and, in fact,
prejudices the response you will receive from readers. If you only
want to 'vent', then fine! If you actually wish to convince of your
views, then your arguments must be less bitterly framed.

>
> I sincerely doubt that anyone whose opinion can be considered to

be informed believes, today, that the Nordic ethnic type predominated
among the earliest IE speakers.

>
> Though every ethnic group has moved around a lot, Nordics are

clearly at home in Northern Europe; and IE has been most severely
modified by the predominantly Nordic populations of Northern Europe,
suggesting strongly to me that their languages are IE overlaying some
other language(s) which was the earlier language of the Nordics.

>
> What was the ethnic type of the earliest IE speakers? I doubt

there is a simple answer. I favor the view that PIE developed from a
contact between speakers of various Caucasian languages and
Afro-Asiatic speakers, who were ethnically separate. The resulting
ethnically mixed group spread out from Anatolia in all directions,
probably in connection with the spread of agriculture. The ubiquity of
IE almost requires a population-expanding mechanism like agriculture.

>
> So, I hope these remarks are helpful.
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>
>
> Patrick
>
> ***

Thanks Mr. Ryan. They certainly are. Let me add that internet is not
my only source of information. Agree with you that there needs to be
a mechanism for langauge spread and agriculture could be the one.
Please see figure 18.8 below

http://www.psych.auckland.ac.nz/Psych/research/Evolution/AtkinsonandGrayrev3wfigs.pdf

The branch containing IA and Albanian has a posterior probability of
only 36. Albanian might just be the lynch pin to this puzzle. May be
Albanian signifies the mingling of populations as you wrote:

"I favor the view that PIE developed from a contact between speakers
of various Caucasian languages and Afro-Asiatic speakers, who were
ethnically separate"

M. Kelkar

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