--- In
cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tolgs001" <st-george@...> wrote:
>
> alexandru wrote:
>
> >The hungarian word aranjos 'gold' (-anjos is a suffix in Hungarian)
>
> <arany> ['OrOñ] "gold"; <aranyos> means "golden, made of gold"
> (i.e. "de aur; auriu; ca aurul; suflat cu aur / fig. "dragutz,
> nostim, dulce" <--- as a transparent loan translation from
> German <goldig>)
>
> -any & -ény is also a suffix; however, I don't know if
> <-any-> in <arany> can be interpreted as a suffix. (Unfor-
> tunately, I don't know the etymology of Hung. <arany>.
1. Take a look ON ALL Finno-Ugric words for 'gold'
'arany' 'aranjos' => are not inherited Finno-Ugric Words
So 'arany' is For sure a LOAN in Hungarian
2 -any and -anjos are Hungarian suffixes.
These suffixes are present in Hungarian words arany & aranjos =>
where the obvious root is ar- here.
//-----------------------------------------------------------
> But there seems to be a connection to the vast IE groups
> of terms related to gold and copper a/es- and a/er-.
'Vast' above seems for me an ideological pro-Hungarian thesis.
THAT 'VAST IE GROUPS' ARE NOT 'VAST' AT ALL: Latin aurum has an
intervocalic -r- from an OLD intervocalic -s- PIE *V-s-V > Latin *V-r-
V => and this s>r is 'almost' a 'LATIN transformation'.
So a root a(u)r- for GOLD especially in Europe is 100% a LATIN one
(as primary source)
//-----------------------------------------------------------
> Probably related to this Hung. <ezüSt> ['æzüSt] "silver"
> -- ie, here, <ar-> and <ez->; whereas Hung. érc [e:rts] "ore,
> containing metals (of mountains)" is, probably, of no
> use since it might be [I personally don't know] a German
> loanword: Erz "ore".)
Probably? the vocalism of arany is quite different that ezüSt
etc...please try another etymology...:)
//-----------------------------------------------------------
> >seems to be a loan from a local population that:
> > 1. has loaned Latin 'aurum'
> > 2.a and has reduced auC-u to aC-u see Latin auscultare >
> >Romanian ascultare , Latin Augustus > OldRomanian Agust
> > or
> >.b from a population that globally reduced au>a as in Albanian
> >so this population was either a Romanized one or an Albanoid one
> >possesin some important Latin loans :)
> >
> >So a single loan is enough to tell us who was that local
population
> >that Hungarians found extracting the Gold in the 'Gold Valley'
> >(Arjesh) of the Apuseni Mountains when the Hungarians arrived
> >around 1000 AC.
>
> This assumption would imply that Romanians are not autochtonous
> there. Since in the Romanian language, in all Romanian sub-
> dialects that have been spoken North of the Danube (as well as
> in the former Roman provinces Dacia ripensis, Dacia mediterranea,
> Moesia Inferior, Moesia Superior, Dardania) au- has been preserved:
> aur. But not as a mere diphtong [au], but in diferent syllables
> separated by a hiatus aur [!a-ur]!
>
> There is no <aur> "gold" in Romanian without the vowel [u].
Incorrect. Incorrect . Incorrect. Note that the Hungarian have
loaned & adapted to their suffixes a derived form (see arany) of aur
and not the primary form auru
Note again next that ar- in Ar-any has its primary source from
Latin.
Next based on its vocalism the source can be ONLY:
Either
1. directly the Balkan Latin so the Romanian
See as a Similar au>a Reduction:
"aurar, s.m. [...] pe care Puşcariu 171 şi DAR îl derivă direct din
lat. aura:rius (atrăgînd atenţia apoi că rezultatul normal ar fi
*arar, Puşcariu, Lr., 18, a admis o analogie cu aur"
To translate for you : THE NORMAL RESULT IN ROMANIAN OF THE
LATIN AURA:RIUS SHOULD HAVE BEEN *ARAR, GEORGE, IAR AURAR E REFACUT
ANALOGIC
The HIATUS a-u is preserved, George, ONLY in accented syllables
Or
2. an Albanoid Population Semi-Romanized also ...I repeat semi-
Romanized also...because Hungarian ar- is finally sourced from Balkan
Latin aur- and in today Albanian the word is (guess?) ar.
Knowing that the Romanian Substratum is an Albanoid one too only
the Romanians could be the source of Hungarian adaptations
because NO other European Population (Latin or not) posses the word
for GOLD in this form
//-----------------------------------------------------------
> Moreover: the assumed population that passed on *ar must
> have been assimilated by Hungarians without any trace before
> Romanians arrived that area (of the Romanian "Western"
> Mountains), since Romanian doesn't have *ar and no other
> traces that could have been left by that population (let
> alone traces of traditions, customs etc.).
I have presented you already based on Puscariu that a Latin aura:rius
should gave *arar in Romanian and that Romanian aurar was reshaped by
analogy
George? Are you 'somehow' Hungarian?
//-----------------------------------------------------------
> And, finally, the Romanian rendering of that geographic
> Aranyos ['O-rO-ñoS] is Arie$ [a-ri-'eS]. In Romanian, Arie$
> has no meaning. Only -e$ has the aspect of a suffix to the
> Romanian ear. And that's all.
Ariesh is constructed IN THE SAME WAY as Crish Somesh Argesh Muresh
Timish SO as any ANCIENT Dacian (>Romanian) river name
1. Ariesh < Dacian *Aur-esja (where aur- is from Latin)
2. Crish < Dacian *Kri-sja < *kWrs-(e)syo
3. Argesh < Dacian *Ardz-esja < *h2erg^-esyo
4. Muresh < Dacian *Ma:r-esja < *meh2r-esyo
5. Somesh < Dacian *Sa:m-esya < *seh2m-esyo
6. Timish < Dacian *Tim-e/isja < *tim-esyo
To give you an additional hint: In Ariesh we have e>je (as in fierbe
< fervere) the sy > sh (as in sharpe < sjarpe < serpem) and au>a as
in aura:rius > *arar (aurar)
So Aranyos is 'a translation' of a Dacian > Romanian *Auresya
see its 1075 attestation
<<King Geysa I of Hungary in 1075 endowed the Benedictine cloister in
Gran which he founded with the reference to "ultra silvam" the salina
(salt mine) near Thorenburg and with half of the royal income "in
loco, qui dicitur hungarice Aranas, latine autem Aureus" >>
url:
http://www.woodstocknation.org/Egginkbendanann.htm
Note that the salt mines are in good shape (and I will say baseed on
the locus name Auresus also the gold mines) ONLY aprox. 100 years
after Hungarian arrival in Transylvannia (898 -> the Hungarian
arri8ved in Pannonia) => so they will not have time to put in
function all that mines
//--------------------------------------------------------------
> term were aware of the meaning, they would've translated it
> in a way or other, Romanian being capable of building many
> derivates outa <aur>, both toponyms and anthroponyms (of these
> let me mention Aurel, Auricã, Aurica, Aurelia).
Not true these are recent formations George
I will repeat for you
THE NORMAL RESULT IN ROMANIAN OF THE LATIN AURA:RIUS SHOULD HAVE BEEN
*ARAR, GEORGE, 'IAR AURAR E REFACUT ANALOGIC' (see Puscariu)
//-------------------------------------------------------------
> Related to
> the name of this rivulet Aranyos/Arie$, look at the toponym
> Zlatna, Hung. Zalatna ['zO-lOt-nO], both meaning nothing
> in Romanian and Hungarian, but containing the... "gold"
> semantic in any... Slavic language. In ancient times, i.e.,
> under Roman administration, in the province Dacia Felix,
> Z(a)latna's name was... Ampelum.
NO LINK: I showed you that ar- could be ONLY from Latin via an
Albanoid Romanized population situated NORD OF DANUBE in Apuseni
Mountains
Not via Slavic (beacuse not such a word in Slavic) not from
Germans (because not such a word in German) not to somebody else in
Europe (because not such a vocalism or word to any other population
here) : all the other peoples have either different words for GOLD or
in the other Latin Languages the vocalism is different.
//-----------------------------------------------------------
> Also note that no direct phon. relationship (of derivation)
> can be established between the late Roman name <Auratus>
> and <Arie$>. Its older name was <Crisola>, which, if read
> in Greek, contains at least the common semantic: "gold"
> which is present in <Auratus> and <AranyoS>, but if it is
> also contained in <Arie$>, no Romanian native-speaker is
> aware of it, since it is too distant from the Romanian
> word <aur> "gold" and its derivations e.g. <auriu> "golden"
> and <aurit> which is the Romanian past participle that shows
> a verb (a aurí) in the -ire (IV) conjugation, and not that
> one in the -are (I) conjugation which lays at the base of
> the late Latin name <Auratus>.
Correct: Ariesh is not a pure Latin transformation
However you made a Bad deduction (again) above => *Auresya > Ariesh
is an ANCIENT Dcaian formation (see its phonetic transformations and
think to their related timeframes) dating directly from Dacian times
because we have sy>sh and e>je INSIDE : tipical transformation for
Proto-Albanians and for the Romanian Romanized Substratum
//------------------------------------------------------------
> #
>
> For the timespans of the 9th and 10th centuries, the
> existence of some kind of "Albanoid" population in the
> mountains where Arie$ flows and where Zlatna is located
> can't be assumed due to complete lack of any information
> whatsoever pertaining to such a population. (And *illyroid*
> people who extracted gold and silver in the same places
> had lived there 8-10 centuries before. We know that due
> to some written vestigies left by the overlords themselves:
> the Roman authorities.)
Correct a Non-Romanized Albanoid population is not attested in
Hungarian arrival times.
However a Romanized Albanoid population was and is still visible
there (attested in Gesta Hungarorum) => and this populatio are today
Romanians : the Hungarian word arany is the proof that we were there
George when the Hungarian arrived in Ariesh Valley
George The WORD aur>ar is NOT present as a LOAN in SLAVIC or in
GERMAN or in any other languages that was/is in that region with the
EXCEPTION of Romanians and Albanians that was one and the same
people with some dialectic differences Before the Romanization of Pre-
Romanian
NOW if you really want to answer to the question: from where
Hungarians took the 'ar-any' word?
TODAY Albanians were already nearby the Greek border BEFORE the
Romans arrival in Balkans
So THE SINGLE SOURCE Of Hungarian 'arany' could be from an ALBANOID
ROMANIZED POPULATION that still extracted the GOLD in Ariesh Valley
when the HUNGARIANS arrived there...An that Albanoid Romanized
population are in fact the Romanians
Marius
P.S. I'm from that valley, George: Ariesh (<*Auresya) river 'arrives
finally' in Turda (< Turdha < *Turrdza <*Turr(i)tsa < *Pa-Ta:rwitsa
(attested Pa-t[a]ruissa/Pa-ta[r]wissa) for the lost of initial Pa-
see Tisa < Pa-Titsja attested Pa-tissus) before to join the Muresh
river (Muresh < *Ma:resya).