[tied] Re: Archaeology of the Horse

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:

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> --- mkelkar2003 <swatimkelkar@...> wrote:
>
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh
> > <gknysh@> wrote:
>
> > > >
> > > > The postulated expansion of IE associated with
> > the
> > > > spread of Corded Ware cultures to northern and
> > > > central
> > > > Europe in the 4th and 3rd millennium BC from a
> > > > Ponto-Caspian heartland does not depend on the
> > > > classical "kurgan" theory, and does not require
> > the
> > > > existence of nomadism or even the presence of
> > > > cavalry
> > > > as a preponderant military element for its
> > > > justification.
> >
> > What does it depend on then?
>
> *****GK: On the decision to move into a coveted
> territory associated to the conviction or hope that
> one has sufficient strength to make this possible.
> There are many known instances in Europe itself
> (independent of the original postulated IE push) where
> such movements succeeded for reasons other than
> massive cavalry assaults such as were imagined in the
> classical "kurgan" theory. For instance: the Germanic
> drang of 300 BC -->, the Slavic invasions, etc
> etc.*****

The Slavic invasions (migrations?) are problematic as they are
unsubstantiated by any evidence. Refer to Alinei's challenge below:

"The totally absurd thesis of the so called `late arrival' of the
Slavs in Europe must be replaced by the scenario of Slavic continuity
from Paleolithic, and the demographic growth and geographic expansion
of the Slavs can be explained, much more realistically, by the
extraordinary success, continuity and stability of the Neolithic
cultures of South-Eastern Europe (the only ones in Europe that caused
the formation of tells) (Alinei 2004)."

http://www.continuitas.com/interdisciplinary.pdf

"And I (Alinei) challenge Slavic specialist to find any indication of
a recent arrival of the Slavs in their area in other (other than those
mentioned by him already) medieval sources (parentheses added, Alinei
2003)."

http://www.continuitas.com/interdisciplinary.pdf page 26

>
> > Much
> > > > of
> > > > this has already been discussed here at various
> > > > times.
> >
> > "Discussesd" does not mean all the objections have
> > been answered.
>
> *****GK: Have a look at these discussions and state
> which objections remain unanswered.*****
>
>
> >
> > > > Must one begin anew every few months? How many
> > times
> > > > is it necessary to repeat that it is Corded Ware
> > > > (originating in the Serednyj Stih/Sredny Stog
> > > > culture
> > > > prior to the latter's evolution into Yamna)
> > which
> > > > assimilated Trypilia and Globular Amphorae, and
> > not
> > > > the other way around?
> >
> > You lost me there. What does corded ware have to do
> > with supposed
> > exapnsion/invasion of the IE speakers. You may have
> > read the
> > citation about Yamnaya not having any evidence of
> > long distance
> > migrations or nomadism.
>
> *****GK: Serednyj Stih (ca. 4200-3500 BC) was
> antecedent to Yamna, and was ancestral to the latter
> as well as to other "Corded Ware" cultures. It was a
> pastoral (though not exclusively so) culture, not a
> classical "nomadic" culture. The spread of "Corded
> Ware" to northern and central Europe preceded the
> emergence of Yamna. "Corded Ware" had infiltrated
> Trypilia (from its Serednyj Stih base) and was already
> present as far west as the current Polish-Ukrainian
> border even before the disappearance of Funnel Beaker.
> Globular Amphorae bypassed this initial CW presence as
> it marched eastward against the Trypilians. Within a
> few hundred years everything in this large area became
> "Corded Ware". Yamna (ca. 3500-2800 BC) was a late
> eastern variant of "Corded Ware".******

The following link don't mention anything about language of these people.

http://www.netaxs.com/~tdo/trypil.html

Many articles on this site are very cautious about the language issue:

http://www.trypillia.com/articles/index.shtml

except this one which apprently has not been updated for a while.

http://www.trypillia.com/articles/eng/re5.shtml

The author defends Gimbutas' theory as follows:

"The language of the Kurgan horse-riders did expand. All scholars
(except the so-called Indocentric crackpots) admit that Indo-Iranian
was a Kurgan language, and that the languages of northern India have
been replaced by Indo-Aryan, even though there is no evidence of a
major invasion."

Allen might as well include the whole archaeological establishment for
example Harvard archaeologist Lamberg-Karlovsky in his defintion of
"Indo-Centric" crackpots.

Looking at the diagram titled "Central Europe at the beginning of the
3rd Millenium BC" not just "Indo-Iranian" but **EVERY
SINGLE**identification of a site with a group of languages has been
rejected by specialist in the field. All the references have been
listed under Section 6 of proto vedic continuity theory.doc in the
files section.

In passing it may be noted that James Allen is a computer programmer.

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~jamesdow/Tech/index.htm

Allen's articles in not listed under "Scientifc Articles."

"It is known though that the tribes that later formed the Trypillia
culture must have migrated from the territories of what today are
Rumania and Hungary, and settled in the territory of the present-day
Ukraine in about the sixth millennium BC. We have no clear evidence as
to what language they spoke (Dovzhenko, 2005 ?)"

http://www.trypillia.com/articles/eng/re3.shtml

Hungary to Ukriane is in the other direction.




M. Kelkar

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