Re: [tied] Thematic root aorist

Andrew Jarrette wrote:

>
>
>
> */Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@... edu.pl>/* wrote:
>
> On 2006-07-14 23:18, Edgard Bikelis wrote:
> > Hi!
> >
> > Is there any PIE root that is by itself a thematic root
> > aorist/punctual, in the same way as *bher- is durative?
> >
> > The best example I did find for now is from Vedic ávidam / ávidas /
> > ávidat, but

this verb seems to be from our old friend *weyd-. If

> so,
> > from where came the -n- from the present vindá:mi / vindási /
> vindáti?
> > Is that the nasal infix from the seventh class, that went to the
> weak
> > grade as it lost the accent for the thematic vowel, or am I just
> messing
> > up everything ; )?
>
> The history of the problem is one of gradual elimination. There are
> _very_ few if any simple thematic aorists that are reconstructible
> for
> PIE. All such aorists seem to have originated as athematic aorist
> subjunctives converted into indicatives or old middles converted into
> actives. The best examples of relatively old simple thematic
> aorist are
> *h1ludH-é/ó- and *wid-é/ó-, the latter less secure than it used to
> be,
> since athematic *weid-/*wid- (secondarily thematised) is suggested by
> Lat. vi:dit vs. Gk eîde, Skt.

ávidat. Lat. vi:dit was once

> regarded as a
> reflex of perf. *wóide, but that's unlikely given its meaning ('saw,
> perceived' etc., never 'knows').
>
> Piotr
> ____________ ___
> Why did athematic aorist subjunctives have zero grade? Shouldn't
> they have the forms of the s-aorist or the root aorist (i.e.
> lengthened grade or full grade (or did the root aorist have zero
> grade in the dual and plural?)) plus the subjunctive endings? And
> why would middles (I assume from the imperfect?) have zero grade?
> I'm just a little confused by these ideas of the origin of the
> thematic root aorist. Actually, I've just realized I'm not sure I
> understand what is meant by "thematic _root_ aorist" -- I
> originally thought he meant aorists that have the thematic vowel
> before the endings, but maybe he means something else? Perhaps
> you could clarify on this matter for

me.

> Andrew
>
>
>

Hi!

Answering to both answers: First, thank you, Piotr!

If by 'he' you mean me, Andrew, I was trying to create a mental
table of possible root forms. There are athematic (*h1es-, for instance)
and thematic (*bher-) durative roots, but so far I just saw athematic
(*deh3-) punctual roots. Then I asked if there is any punctual root with
thematic vowel and accent on root's ablauting vowel. It is indeed
curious that there is none. What I meant was different from thematic
durative roots that have accent on the thematic vowel when in the aorist.

Edgard.

__________

Thanks for explaining for me, Edgard.  I haven't yet read Piotr's reply (soon will), but I think I understand what you were seeking.  There is only one small part that I am still uncertain about:  I did not know until now that thematic durative roots form an aorist with accent on the thematic vowel.  Can you give any examples (and also Sanskrit examples or Greek etc. examples)?

Andrew