Re: [tied] Re: Idea of PIEan expansion - "business takeovers" on ma

J2, as I understand it, is linked both with early agricultural explansion into Europe and to the Semitic expansion.

As some have pointed out --It's very possible that IE speakers were on the edge of the Balkans --say Hungary, Ukraine, Moldova, Danube.

Curiously, I myself have the J2 haplotype even though my Mc Callister ancestors arrived in the US from Belfast c. 1750 or so. My closest genetic relatives on websites, other than some other Mc Callisters, are in Central Asia, the Middle East and Eastern Europe and tend to be Kahane or Muslims.

andrew_and_inge <andrew.lancaster@...> wrote:

For the record, male's taking up local wives would still have left a
strong pattern in the local Y-DNA (male specific) genepool, and yet
specifically Caucasian Y haplotypes are not spread in any easy-to-
recognize way into the Indo-European language areas, although they
may once have been. There is on the other hand significant but thin
spread of Balkan Y haplotypes like E3b1 and J2e, which appear, based
on mutation diversity to be just the right age to be first-farmer-
spread. What makes the story even a bit neater is that both are
branches of Middle Eastern families.

However I agree with you that it is unlikely that such early farmers
spread what we would recognise as the Indo-European family of
languages, because this group simply seems to be too recent.

This of course leaves open the possibility that, for example, these
farmers and potters spoke Indo-Anatolian of a form more distantly
related to Indo European, but we have no evidence for that except
perhaps that we have to explain why a language in Turkey probably had
it's closest cousin over on the other side of the Black Sea, with
either the Caucasus or Balkans in between. The Caucasus is possible,
but there are so many languages there which are not descended from
Indo Anatolian. Might both have originated with people who once lived
in the Black Sea basin?

I also agree that trade and similar peaceful cultural contact may
have led to the spread of Indo European into Europe, though
presumably without the male-specific mass migration you posit. (There
is a more broad mixture of genetic haplotypes which seems to spread
from East to West, but not particular Y haplotypes.)

In fact, there are some words which seem to have been in present in
Indo European which came from the Middle East, which was of course
more civilised at the time. There are also possibly words and
technologies that they exported to the Middle East. So like the much
earlier Balkan farmers, the Indo Europeans may have been middle men
with more advanced cultures to the south.

A good model for this type of cultural spread from advanced south to
primitive north by a single non-southern "contact culture" might in
fact be the Celts in classical times, whose descendents are
genetically very difficult to distinguish from Basques, and therefore
presumably not to be explained by massive movements of conquering
peoples.

Best Regards
Andrew

[snip]

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