[tied] Re: Permian

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@...>
wrote:

>
> On 2006-04-19 11:09, tgpedersen wrote:
>
> > Are you positive? That means 'Bremen' makes no sense.
>
> I haven't said anything about the etymology of <Bremen>.

You said something about the semantic field of *bhrem- :
"
The original meaning doesn't seem to have had any watery connections.
The Gmc. prototype is something like *barma-, *barmja- (with
metathetic by-forms) 'margin, border, fringe, ledge'. It is not
related to OE brim 'surf, sea', which is connected with <bremman> and
OHG breman 'roar, rage', cf. Lat. fremo: and perhaps Skt. bHrama-
'whirling flame, whirlpool' (the root is *bHrem-).
"
Pokorny:
"
.
1. bherem- ,hervorstehen, eine Spitze oder Kante bilden; Kante,
Spitze'?
bhorm-:
Aisl. barmr ,Rand, Saum', ey-barmr ,ora insulae', norw. dial.
barm ,Kante, Bräme' (z. B. am Segel), ndd. barm, berme ,die sanfte
Abdachung des Deichfußes, Wallrand'.
...
Mit der Bed. ,Kante, Rand'; mhd. brëm n. ,Einfassung, Rand', nhd.
verbrämen, ablautend mengl. brimme, engl, brim ,Rand'.
WP. II 102.
"
American Heritage Dictionary:
"
bhrem-2. To project; a point, spike; an edge.
1. ...
2. Germanic *berm-, *brem-, in: a. Middle English brimme, edge:
brim; b. Middle Dutch berme, barm, edge of a dike: berm. [Pok. 1.
bherem-142.]
"

No watery connections?

> > I've never seen the Warta. It must be a wondrous sight.
>
> I don't understand your point.
>

You:
"
Why not *brama- < *bHor-m(n)o-, a "Rasmussen derivative" of *bHer-mn.
'burden' (cf. Gmc. *strauma- < *srou-m(n)o- from *sreu-mn.)? The
etymology of a word meaning 'ledge' or 'brink' as 'something
supported' makes sense to me.
"

I was puzzled where you got that idea of supported ledges on the
sides of rivers. I assumed it was something local? :-)

> >>> So now we know why it's called Bremen and Birmingham. Or?
> >> Birmingham < Bermingeham < OE *Beor(n)m(und)inga ha:m, as Brian

has

> >> already pointed out.
> >
> > Personally, I never point out stuff that involves an asterix. I

only

> > suggest it.
>
> Sometimes the asterisk is just a formality. It isn't my fault that
> <Bermingeham> is first documented in the Domesday Book. The

structure of

> the name is perfectly clear. The personal name Beorma is attested

in OE,

> though it may be difficult to identify with certainty the full

form for

> which the diminutive stands (it could be Beornmund, Beornmo:d,

perhaps

> even Beorhtmund etc.), just as it's a matter of guessing whether a
> particular occurrence of <Bertie> in Modern English stands for

<Albert>,

> <Bertrand>, <Gilbert>, <Herbert> etc. This uncertainty in no way

weakens

> the etymology. As in Modern English, the diminutive could be used

to the

> exclusion of the full name.

That was many perfectly clear things. I was wondering how clear the
Beorma -> Bermingeham was. Why are you so positive it is based on a
personal name?

> >> The -ingham placenames in England are all based
> >> on personal names.
> >>
> >
> > As opposed to the ing(en) names elsewhere?
>
> One particularly archaic (and well-studied) type of placename in

England

> is the "Hastings" type (OE -ingas). They are formally plural

clanal

> names derived from the names of their real or mythical ancestors.

The

> suffix <-ing> functions here like a patronymic element, cf. its

use in

> names of Anglo-Saxon royal lineages, such as the Oiscingas (the

house of

> Oisc, the eponymic founder of the Kentish dynasty). The same

clanal

> names can be used in the "-ingham, -ingley, -ington, ..." type.

Here we

> have the gen.pl. of the <-ing> formation (OE -inga) followed by a

noun

> such a <ha:m> 'homestead, farm', <leah> 'meadow, untilled land',

<tu:n>

> 'enclosure', etc. <Hæstingas> and <Hæstinga ceaster> were used
> interchangeably.
>

I meant 'as opposed to -ing(en) names outside of England'? Case in
point: My Danish etymological dictionary mentions, under 'bræmme',
Bramminge in Jutland, situated on the bank of Ilsted å.


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