Re: [tied] Rounding (was: Greek labiovelars)

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Sean Whalen <stlatos@...> wrote:

> --- "Anders R. Joergensen" <ollga_loudec@...>
> > > > for- is probably not a case of rounding, but
> > rather
> > > > influenced by
> > > > *upo > *wo
> > >
> > > It could be analogy, but if the other examples
> > are
> > > true it's not necessary.
> >
> > Well then you just give up explaining the British
> > Celtic reflex
> > *wor...
>
> I'm not giving up; initial w in P-Celtic can cause
> rounding independent of the Irish types.

Well, if we ignore British Celtic *wor (and I don't see how we can),
you still can't assume a change of initial *we- > fo- (or *wi- > *fu-
for that matter) in Irish. What about fer < *werah < *wiros, feithid
< *wet-e-, feidid < *wed-e- etc.? Or am I missing a point?

> >
> > Yes, this is u-infection, not the same as influence
> > from a
> > labiovelar (though it may have happened at the same
> > time).
>
> Sihler says final u causes rounding and drops;
> spelling daur indicating darW etc., and if so the
> roundings would be for the same reason at the same
> time.

Yes, but not the same thing and certainly not conditioned in the
same way.

>
> > > > borrowing from
> > > > Latin vesper, just like W gosper, Bret. gousper
> > >
> > > It's no borrowing; "evening" W ucher; Co
> > gurth-uher
> > > from my *wesxWeros (we>wi>wu>u as ugeint "twenty")
> > in
> > > Proto-Celtic.
> >
> > How can you tell whether it's inherited or borrowed?
>
> I can't be completely sure fescor is inherited, but
> since W ucher; Co gurth-uher exist and are evidence
> toward my stage *wesxWeros I think this makes it more
> likely. In another word I have initial *sxW > kW in
> Irish, so s-xW > s-kW seems to fit (also sw > p in
> piuthar Gaelic, s/fiur OIr, perhaps through sw > sf to
> account for all forms and lenition?).
>

OIr. (DIL) fescor is translated 'evening, eventide, vespers', W
(GPC) gosber is translated 'afternoon, evening, evensong, vespers,
evening prayer'.
W ucher is, on the other hand, translated 'evening, eve' (no
religious component mentioned). This might be a slight indication
towards taking fescor as a loan-word. There is of course also the
possibility of fescor having a dual origin...

Anders