Re: [tied] PIE athematic neuters

----- Original Message -----

From: Piotr Gasiorowski

To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 4:45 AM

Subject: Re: [tied] PIE athematic neuters

On 2006-03-15 10:08, Miguel Carrasquer wrote:

> According to my interpretation, due to underlying length in
> the neuter form:
>
> *kí:rd   > *k^é:r(d)
> *ki:rdás > *k^r.dés

So you have shortening to zero in the weak allomorph -- that looks more
like a stipulation than something that could be proved with independent
evidence.

> (Actually, the oblique is more like *k^r.diyós, which leads
> me to believe that we're not dealing with a root noun,

I suspect the same on other grounds: *k^red-, found in fossilised
univerbations, _might_ reflect a forgotten locative, presupposing
*k^er-d-. Of course the long-vowel problem remains.

> and
> the reconstruction could be something like:
>
> *kí:rd-in     > *k^é:rd(r) > *k^é:r(d)
> *ki:rd-ín-a:s > *k^@rdéyos > *k^@r.d@... > *k^r.d(i)yós
> )

Wouldn't something more orthodox be preferable, like a variant with the
suffix *-ejo-, coll. *-ijah2 (Ck kardía, non-Att. kardíe: ~ kradíe:), so
frequent in anatomical terminology, from which a secondary i-stem could
easily have been extracted? I realise full well you would derive *-ejo-
from **-in-, but my point right now is that the suffix, whatever its
ultimate etymology, is not necessarily an original part of the 'heart'
lexeme (or 'bone', for that matter).

 

***

Patrick:

 

The etymology of this word is an excellent example of where comparison outside of PIE can help us understand better what we see in PIE.

 

I propose that the Egyptian word H3ty, 'heart', is a cognate of *k^(h)ér-dey-Ha, which is a rare early _compound_ rather than a derived form.

 

The first element can be easily seen in PIE *k^(h)er-, 'summit'; and again in Egyptian H3.t, 'foremost part'.

This is exactly what we should expect to see since the proper definition of a "root noun" is *CVC.

 

I believe that the second element can also be identified as PIE *déy-, a *CVC root meaning 'organ (of the body)' but the evidence for this is evanescent.

 

However, by definition, we should expect a PIE word of the form *CVC+CVC to be a compound.

 

I doubt that anyone should seriously question the idea of 'foremost' as a part of a designation for 'heart' since its importance is recognized in every culture of which we have knowledge.

 

The initial of *k^(h)er- is a voiceless aspirate; and, as such, lengthens the following vowel (though it can be subsequently shortened when semantic integrity can be maintained). Therefore, the lengthened vowel in *ke:rd- should be expected without invoking any grammatical process. Of course, if a shortened *kerd- is abbreviated to **ker-, we should expect compensatory lengthening to *ke:r-.

 

The final element (*Ha) is a mystery to me. We can call it a feminine if we wish but it presence in H3ty (y = jj) suggests that it is a very old component in this compound. The best I can come up with is that it is a secondary device for differentiation (the primary morpheme being -*y) when the word already ends in -*y.

 

***