--- In
cybalist@yahoogroups.com, alex <alxmoeller@...> wrote:
> I doubt about a reduction "ps" to "f" in recenter times. "recent"
> here means after Latin time line. For this, we have as testimony
the
> "ps" cluster in Latin.
You are right PAlb ps > PAlb f happened 'Before Roman Times'. But I
don't see any issue here: Alb o <-> Rom. a < PAlb a: reflects also
a 'Before Roman Times' timeframe (and there are others example too)
> The mention made about the word being Arabic and loaned in both
> languages via Turkish, there are some things to ask about but for
> first I will ask just two of them:
>
> 1)which is the pronounciation of Arabic "q" in "qafa_"
I really don't know what is the pronounciation (maybe an Arab native
speaker could help us here) but the word exists for sure in Arabic
and its meaning is the same 'back of the neck'.
So an Arabic source for this word cannot be discarded.
If it is an Arabic Loan we still have some strange evidence of how
old this word is in Romanian and Albanian.
On a regular basis a cluster ky is reflected as q in Albanian and c^
in Romanian ( ky > c^ transformation happens in PROm in sec V - VI
CE (see Rosetti)) and Albanian q (<*ky) belong to the same timeframe
In addition with a *kepH-so root (that fit perfectly the semantism)
we also have (the well known) PAlb rule ps>f here
DERIVATIONS:
For Albanian:
PIE *kepH-so > PAlb *kep-sa [e/stressed > ya in closed syll] > *kyap-
sa > [ps>f still before Roman Times] > kya-fa [ky > q in Roman
Times] > Alb. qafë
And Romanian derivation is regular too from Substratum via Balkan
Latin until today.
For Romanian:
PIE *kepH-so > EarlyPAlb *kep-sa [e/stressed > ya in closed syll] >
*kyap-sa > [ps>f still before Roman Times] > kya-fa [ky > c^ in
Roman Times] > Rom ceafã /c^afë/
a) So we can imagine a borrowing root in Arabic in Roman Times :
PAlb/Dacian -> Balkan Romance -> Greek,Roman Empire -> Middle East -
> (later) Turkish
-----------------------------------------------------------------
b) However we cannot ignore an inverse route of borrowing for this
word in Roman Time:
Middle East (Arabic) -> Old Greek -> Balkan Romance -> PAlb
--------------------------------------------------------------------
or Old Greek -> Middle East (Arabic), Balkan Romance -> PAlb
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Question: Could we check if this word is 'inherited' in Arabic or is
an Old Greek or Turkish loan ?
c) Finally a recent borrowing path:
Arabic -> Turkish -> Albanian, Romanian
------------------------------------------------
cannot be excluded -> to answer also to your question
> 2)is the word known in turkish?
Yes it is.
=> But I don't know ANY other common Turkish (or Slavic loan) in
Romanian and Albanian showing an Alb q for a Romanian c^ (all the
set of such words belongs to the Roman Period).
So we will have a strange exception in this case.
Could somebody help with the Turkish pronounciation too?
Marius
P>S> Regarding the PIE root *kepH- 'head' we have Lat. ca:pus 'head'
(> Romanian cap 'head') indicating also the PIE root *kepH-
Is Latin ca:po:/ca:pus considered an inherited word?
For the root *kepH- we also have in PAlb./Dacian?:
a) Alb/Rom kãp-ushã < [e/non-stressed > &, sy > sh] < PIE *kepH-usyo
or only PIE *keph-uso (if s>sh after u in PAlb/Dacian) < PIE *kepH-
b) Alb. këp-urdhë <-> Romanian(/Bulgarian) c^uperka < c^epurka <
*kyep-urka/*kyep-urda < PIE *keph-
Question : what is the root for 'head' in Arabic and Turkish?