Re: The personal pronouns of PIE (and other families) are loans

From: g
Message: 43022
Date: 2006-01-18

>> Mit can be followed by die in correct German, since mit functions
> >also as an
>> adverb. This can confuse English speakers, who think the mit
> >governs the following "wrong" case. E.g.
>> Diese Katzen sind mit die schoensten, die ich .....
>> ("These cats are amongst the most beautiful that I ...)
>
> cf.
> http://www.ruhrgebietssprache.de/literatur8.html
>
> Google "mit die" site:.de
> produces millions of hits (but many spurious, eg. 'mit "Die toten
> Hosen"' etc.

Yes, but these are completely different aspects of grammar.
<Mit> in the "mit die schönsten [Katzen]" has nothing to do
with the case of the following nouns and adjectives, unlike
the other <mit> ("with"). For the former, <among(st)> is a
good rendering. The idea is "pars pro toto", i.e., one
part/thing/etc. as seen in comparison with an entire group,
where it is to be included. It is standard German. (But
caution: it rather belongs to... high style, esp. in written.
In colloquial and dialectal German, such a <mit> will be
highly unusual, sort of breach of style.)

Whereas <mit> + <accusative> articles/pronouns represents
either sloppy colloquial German (of certain social classes)
or a (sub)dialect. (BTW, in southern dialects, native-speakers
are also quite sloppy, esp. by dropping esp. plural endings.
In the approx. area between Suebia and Western Pannonia
<bei dene Lait> [baj 'de:ne 'lajt] or farther to the East
of this dialectal realm [bæ: de:ne læ:t] will suffice in
order to express <bei jene*n* Leute*n*> (dative, plural).
(<denen> replacing <jenen>)

(BTW, <af da Cybalist(e)> and stressed <af dera Cybalist>;
replace with <uff> for Suebians and Berliners, and <op>
for Niederdeutsch dialects; but in these cases I don't
know exactly the equivalents for <der>, but they must be
close to <da> and <de>). <da Kini> [da 'ki:ni] "der König"
in Bavarian. :-)

> Torsten

George