--- Patrick Ryan <
proto-language@...> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sean Whalen" <stlatos@...>
> > --- Patrick Ryan <proto-language@...> wrote:
> >
> > > I can see no "individualizing" component in the
> > > -*nt- suffix.
> > >
> > > What shocked me, after I had been regarding -*n
> as
> > > an individualizing suffix
> > > for many years, was the necessity of recognizing
> and
> > > reconstructing a
> > > second -*n as a collective - and believe me,
> folks,
> > > I fought hard against
> > > making this assignment.
> >
> > If you're talking about something like *wedn/r-
> vs.
> > *itn/r- (water vs. a way) my explanation is
> The short answer, Sean, is no - this is not what I
> mean.
>
> But more completely:
>
> I think everyone would agree to reconstruct an
> 'individualizing' meaning
> for -*n.
>
> But, although a 'collective' for -*n is rare, is
> there any real alternative
> but to reconstruct such a meaning for *ne-, 'we'?
Just because one suffix *-n has a certain meaning
doesn't mean every one is the same or has the same
origin. In fact evidence from Albanian (for example)
shows that there were more nasals in PIE that usually
denasalized by a V or sonorant C in other languages.
> In what I have seen so far, I cannot justify a
> meaning of 'complete, all' to
> be attached to -*t. What seems to be implicit there
> is 'habituality',
> leading to an implication of 'futurity'.
Again, I think there were at least several affixes
containing *t.
> I cannot really follow the rest of what you write
> here. If you wish to
> pursue it, could you spell it out a little more
> expansively?
Just that H1/2/3 take part in the same sound
changes that velar stops do in some languages so
they're likely velar fricatives.
Here's part of my earlier message about Khowar.
Since kk^ becomes kk (accounting for the difference
between "horn" and "hornless") the same change can
account for "I" *eghx^óm > aham in Sanskrit vs. awa in
Khowar instead of **ozo (Khowar g^>j>z but g>G>w
between V's and a>o except velar (including labiovelar
w)). Sanskrit has x^ and xW spread their feature to a
touching velar before kk^ > kk unlike Khowar.
Just as k() > k by velar so does t > k between C
and x in pro-stx-ó- > frósk "straight" as Polish
prosty "straight" and Sanskrit prastha- "plateau".
dl_n^gHó- k^r._Ngó- eksk^r._Ngó-
dl_n^gHó- k^r._Ngó- ekk^r._Ngó- 3
dl_NgHó- k^r._Ngó- ekkr._Ngó- 4
dl._NgHó- k^r._Ngó- ekkr._Ngó- 6
dl._NgHó- tr._Ngó- ekkr._Ngó- 17
dl.uNgHó- tr.uNgó- ekkr.uNgó- 20
dl.uNgHó- tr.uNgó- ekr.uNgó- 21
dr.uNgHó- tr.uNgó- ekr.uNgó- 26
dr.uNgHá- tr.uNgá- akr.uNgá- 27
dr.uNgHá- r.uNgá- akr.uNgá- 32
dr.uNgá- r.uNgá- akr.uNgá- 35
druNgá- ruNgá- akr.uNgá- 37
druNgá- sruNgá- akr.uNgá- 38
druNgá- sruNgá- akr.0uNgá- 44
druNgá- sruNgá- akHr.uNgá- 46
druNgá- sruNgá- axr.uNgá- 48
druNgá- sruNgá- xr.uNgá- 51
drúNga- srúNga- xr.úNga- 58
drúNga- srúNga- hr.úNga- 62
drúNga- srúNga- r.úNga- 80
drúNga srúNga r.úNga 84
drúNg srúNg r.úNg 85
drúNg srúNg l.úNg 98
drúNg s(u)ruNg l.úNg 106
long, tall horn hornless
pr.ostxó-
pr.oskxó- 5
pr.aská- 27
pr0aská- 44
pHraská- 46
fraská- 48
fráska- 58
frásk 85
frósk 93
straight
eghx^óm me: tu: te:
eghxóm me: tu: te: 4
eghóm me: tu: te: 24
aghám ma: tu: ta: 27
agám ma: tu: ta: 35
aGám ma: tu: ta: 49
áGam ma: tu: ta: 58
áGa ma: tu: ta: 86
áGa ma tu ta 94
aGá ma tu ta 96
awá ma tu ta 107
I me thou thee
1 x > 0 if syllabic word-initial
2 x > 0 syl.-final after V with comp. lengthening
3 s > 0 between two stops
4 palatalized C to velar by velar
5 dental C to velar between obstr. and velar
6 l > l.
7 t > s and d > z after voiced velar stop
8 s > s. after velar, retroflex C, or high vowel
9 n > n. after velar, retroflex C, or high vowel
10 all dental > retro after s., z., or n.
11 stop after voiced aspirate becomes voiced aspirate
12 voiced aspirate deaspirates before s or z
13 voiced stop devoiced before voiceless sound
14 voiceless stop voiced before voiced stop
15 x merger
16 x+syllabic > @
17 velar+palatalized stop > alveopalatal affricate
18 velar stop > palatalized before front vowel or
glide
19 é>yé in open syllable (not long, not diphthong)
20 syllabic r. > ur./r.u
21 geminates degeminate before C
22 high V to glide after V and before glide
23 w>g before w
24 x > 0
25 syllabic n > a
syllabic m > a (but analogy to preserve paradigms)
26 l. > r.
27 e/o > a
28 ai > e:
au > o:
29 a:i > ai
a:u > au
30 alveopalatal > retroflex syl.-final
31 all dental > retro after s., z., or n.
32 affricates > fricatives
33 velar+palatalized > alveopalatal affricates
34 C > -round
35 voiced aspirates deaspirate
36 r. > 0 before s. in syl.
37 r. > r except after velar
38 > s
39 s. >
40 n > 0 before s
41 p>t before t
42 m>p after s
w>p after s
44 w>w0 (voiceless) after voiceless stop
r>r0 (voiceless) after voiceless stop
45 w0>w before voiced glide
r0>r before voiced glide
46 Cw0 > CHw
Cr0 > CHr
47 w>0 after stop
48 CH > fricative before r, l, n, m, w, y
49 voiced stop to fricative between V
50 dissimilation (y>0 before y in next syl.)
51 a>0 in first syl. before C (sometimes)
52 CtH > CH
53 stop > fricative before fricative
54 u>o before r in syl.
55 r>0 before fricative
56 >s after x
57 0>i before s and stop word-initially
58 stress to first syl.
59 syncope (optional)
60 voice assimilation
61 0>t between obstr. and s
62 x>h
63 u>w before V
64 y>j>ç word-initially
65 w>y after C-sonor
66 w>0 after u
67 i>e
68 e:>i
Many Indo-Aryan words are borrowed at this time:
v as b
r. as r.
l. as r.
s. as before t.
s. as s. elsewhere
69 stop -geminate > voiced after V or nasal
70 stop > -geminate after V or nasal
71 r>voiceless after voiceless in other syl.
r>voiceless before voiceless in other syl.
72 r metathesis
73 r0>x
74 ç>
75 á>é after
76 analogy (verb endings always -mi, etc.)
77 t>t before y
d>d before y
ð> before y
s> before y
78 >h word-initial
79 y> word-initial
80 h>0 before C or glide word-initial
81 y>0 after C-sonorant
82 w>v
83 au>u
84 C-sonorant > 0 word-final
85 V-stress > 0 word-final
86 C+nasal > 0 word-final
Now most words end in a C in nom. and V in obl.
Plural verb endings retain (-mas > ma >...)
87 d > 0 word-final after C
88 d>t word-final after V
89 v>f word-final after V
90 voiced stop (not d) > 0 word-final after V
91 >0 word-final after fricative
92 C > -aspirate word-final
93 á>ó not by velar (unless also by nasal?)
a>o not by velar (unless also by nasal?)
94 a:>a
u:>u
95 Suffix added to spatial terms (-a, -i, etc.)
96 stress to last syl.
97 n. > n
98 r. > l.
99 ð > 0
100 d > r after V
101 analogy (verb stems end in C)
102 analogy (that one, obl. to nom. h-)
103 analogy (sister to brother, -ar)
104 analogy (sister to brother, -rar, optional)
105 o>u by labial C (optional)
106 0>u between s and r (optional)
107 g>w between non-front vowels (optional)
They also take part in some sound changes that
velar fricatives would likely undergo. Even though s
was more sonorant than any "laryngeal" candidate it
never became syllabic; the position of x^/x/xW by
e/a/o made them their consonantal equivalent as y/w to
i/u and r to _r etc.
In Latin and Indo-Iranian I think it makes sense
for l>L (velar) in some environments and x causes this
as well as k.
k_lxwó- w_lkó- t_lxyó- w_lxnáx-
k_Lxwó- w_Lkó- t_Lxyó- w_Lxnáx-
k_L(:)wó- w_Lkó- t_Lyó- w_L:ná:-
k_L(:)wá- w_Lká- t_Lyá- w_L:ná:-
k_L(:)wá- w_Lká- t_Lyá- w_'L:na:-
ku(:)Lwá- wuLká- tuLyá- wú:Lna:-
ku(:)lwá- wulká- tulyá- wú:lna:-
ku(:)lwá- ulká- tulyá- ú:lna:-
ku(:)lwá- ulká- tulyá- ú:rna:-
ku(:)lwá- ulká- tulyá- ú:rn.a:-
ku(:)lvá- ulká- tulyá- ú:rn.a:-
bald spark equal wool
equal < tula:- "balance" < tul- "lift, weigh" as Latin
tollere < t_lx-
l>L before velar
X > 0 and lengthens syl.-finally
(ku(:)lvá- has optional syllabification x-w)
e/o>a
accent moves to w_L (and some similar)
syllabic L(:) > u(:)L
L>l
w>0 before u word-initially
l>r before dental
n>n. after r
In Greek there are dissimilations by velar (so H is
velar):
X > x^ before y in same syl.
x^ > ç before glide in same syl.
x^i > i
ix^ > i:
X > syllabic before w word-initially
xW > x before w
ix > ia after obstruent + sonorant
ix > yax
ixW > yoxW
úx > wáx between V's
x > 0 before k
x > 0 after a word-finally
X > 0 and lengthens syl.-finally
çy > jy > dZ > dz/zd
There are also many possible alternations between H
and k etc. and some rules in various languages where
it makes sense or is easier in rules if H is velar
(not much evidence by themselves but piling up to this
conclusion in my opinion).
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