Re: [tied] "Niggers of India"

----- Original Message -----
From: "george knysh" <gknysh@...>
To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2005 11:06 AM
Subject: Re: [tied] "Niggers of India"


>
>

<snip>

> > ***
> > Patrick:
> >
> > PIE had words that properly (originally) meant
> > 'black' (*mer-) or 'gray'
> > (*k^er-).
> >
> > I was not suggesting that /niger/ meant 'hairless'
> > or 'scantily haired' in
> > Latin - ever.
> >
> > But rather that the term _originated_ as a
> > designation for people
> > _incapable_ of growing a 'mane', loosely falling
> > hair behind the head:
> > 'locks', which was subsequently applied to black
> > Africans, many of whom are
> > notable in this respect.
>
> ****GK: As Dan and Piotr have pointed out, "niger" is
> a Latin term of doubtful origin meaning "black"
> (etc..). It takes a very special kind of logic to
> believe that an original meaning of "incapable of
> growing a lock" (or something along those lines) in
> some non IE language would have developed into the
> attested Latin sense of "dark" "black" etc. You seem
> to say that the "original" "lockless" was
> misinterpreted by Latins (or others, or other IE's if
> there are such indications) to mean "black" etc..
> because those so designated happened to be black, a
> characteristic more evident to the IE's than that they
> were "lockless", and that SUBSEQUENTLY this term
> ("niger") began to be applied to things "dark" etc..
> OTHER than humans. Not very likely.******

***
Patrick:

I believe there are several assumptions in George's comments which may be
legitimately questioned:

1) I did not assert nor do I believe that the term originated in "some
non-IE language"; I think it probably originated in an IE language, because
of its form; had it been borrowed from Egyptian, for example, into Latin, it
would likely have had a form like *naehes or *naexus;

2) I do not think the term was "misinterpreted by Latins"; I think it was
first applied by them to Africans, with whom they would have been familiar
as slaves, primarily, but was applied to an associated meaning ('black')
when other, geographical terms for an 'African' like Aethiops came to be
used prevalently;

a) the Latins loved descriptive nicknames that went in an out of use;

3) I do not believe that Africans' being black is "more evident" or less
evident than the observation that they had no 'locks' behind their heads;
nor more important;

Until George or someone else can produce a plausible source for /niger/
other than a luckless suggestion of substrate or unknown borrowing source, I
think the possibility of IE origin with known IE elements is worth
considering.

The Egyptian term is very plausibly related semantically to the idea of no
hair at the back of the head, written as it was by a depiction of the Sennâr
guinea-fowl.

If you have a better suggestion, George, I would be interested to hear it.

***