Re: Lat. Padus [Was: Single origin of agriculture?]

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Francesco Brighenti"
<frabrig@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...>

wrote:

>
> > There is of course no early rice in Europe, but maybe someone

once

> > tried to introduce it and left no trace? Cf. *pajay, *pag`ey,

*paj&i,

> *págey, various reconstructions for "rice > plant", Proto-

Austronesian,

> > cf. English (rice) paddy < Malay pa:di:, loaned(?) as pre-PIE

*padam,

> > PIE *pedom?
> > (see http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/pd.html)
> > It would be interesting to find ancient rice on the river

Padanus

> > (where there's plenty of it now).
>
> The Latin name for the river Po you refer to was Padus,

not 'Padanus'...

Embarassing. Sorry.

>
> Moreover, rice started being cultivated in the Po plains (N.B.

till

> today, only in some northern districts of Piedmont and Lombardy)

only

> in the 14th-15th centuries AD.
>
> As to the etymology of the hydronym Padus, here is an up-to-date
> summary:
>
> http://xoomer.virgilio.it/asciatopo/liguria.html
>
> << Bodincus fl., Padus fl.
> Place: river Po, regions Piemonte, Lombardia, Emilia-Romagna,

Veneto,

> Italy
> Name: Bodincus fl. (Plin.) Padus fl. (Ptol., Plin., Paul. Diac.)
> Etymology: Pliny says that Bodincus is the old Ligurian name,
> meaning `bottomless', while Padus is another name for the same

river.

> Actually the linguistic analysis let us suppose that Padus is the

name

> in the Liguro-Sicanian stratum, while Bodincus in a Celtic or
> Alteuropaeisch language. Both derive from the IE root *bhedh- `to
> pierce, dig' [cf. Gaulish bedo `canal, dig'].

Oh, there are plenty more. See
http://www.angelfire.com/rant/tgpedersen/pd.html

> In the Liguro-Sicanian
> language ([the probably already Gallicized] Ligurian), the
> dissimilation gave *bhed- and thus the consonant shift *ped-, with
> ablaut *pad-.

*bh-, thus *p- ? Is this much better than what I proposed? BTW
Møller made the alternation p/bh (etc) a cornerstone in his attempt
to connect IE and Semitic.


Vice versa, the other stratum, possibly typical of the

> lower part of the river, preserved the original stops as *bod-,

with a

> different O-grade. Finally, *-inkos seems to be a typical Celtic
> suffix. >>
>

Or (pre-)Germanic, for that matter. Furthermore *-en-ko as a suffix
sequence makes sense in Basque. Proto-Vasconic?

> At http://www.cittavivaostuni.it/filologia/fiumi.htm the eminent
> Italian philologist Giovanni Semerano derives the Latin hydronym

Padus

> from an Akkadian source (patu `river, canal'). Even the Greek term
> potamos `river' would derive, according to him, from a compound of
> Akkadian patu- with amum/habbu/abbu `swamp, marsh'. However, such

long-

> range etymologies don't look very reliable.
>
> Be that as it may, a rice-based Austronesian etymology for the

Latin

> hydronym Padus seems quite impossible to me!

Rice cultivation did make it to Western Africa.




Thank you for all the wonderful glosses. I will add them to my site.


Torsten