--- In
cybalist@yahoogroups.com, glen gordon <glengordon01@...>
wrote:
>
> C. Darwin Goranson:
> > Just curious, though, why the "e" between
> > the "g" and the final "t" there?
>
> The thematic vowel? Oh, well follow them then. If
> it's athematic, mea culpa. My noodle has been
> twisted around ever since a previous discussion
> about the origin of thematic presents was suggesting
> that there were no present forms in IE itself distinct
> from the subjunctive based on Anatolian and Tocharian
> patterns.
For what I can tell, there weren't too many thematic roots.
Basically, if a root inds in "o" or "e" (or the conjugated "os"),
it's thematic. That the best I can make out.
> > Clothed? I'm very confused by that word.
>
> Poetic license. I was using it to refer to darkness
> by thinking of the night as merely the daylight
> being "covered over".
I appreciate the suggestion, but the expression seems a bit of a
stretch
> > Also, should there be a "kWe in this phrase for the
> > "and" sense?
>
> Doesn't *kWe mean "and"?
Yes. For what I can tell (again, I may have misunderstood the
text), "and," when used in list form, was "*kWe"
> > Is there any reconstructable word for "when" in PIE?
> > And is there a future tense?
>
> Not really. The present worked for the future tense.
> The optative (marked in *-yeh-) might at times work to
> convey a futuristic sense.
Funny story about that. After days of wracking my head for some way
to deal with this word, I decided I would try to see if I could
ferret one out for myself from the attested languages. I suspected
it would be kW at the start, then a vowel, then a nasal (kW-V-N),
based on Germanic and Latin. I decided to see what Pokorny had to
say on the matter, so I checked the Leiden site. There, to my great
stunned relief, was the root *kWom, a temporal adjective meaning
just what I'd been struggling to find.
So there's a word for "when" in PIE after all: *kWom
> > Is the word "text" a computational mistake for some
> > character or something, or is the word actually
> > teh2t?
>
> Yes. The verb /teh2-/ "to melt".
I think the conjugation has to have an "i" at the end. I had a real
confusion between Primary and Secondary Active cases. Basically,
the "i" might be connected to a suffix to an adjective, one that
emphasizes immediacy or a "now" feeling. That "-i" is present in the
Primary. On the other hand, the Secondary Active appears to be some
form of past tense.
> > h2ég'r-os h2erh3-sye/o-mi (could be *-sye- or
> > *-syo-)
> > Glen: kWo dínoi xégrom xérhWom
> > How does one include the word "again," while still
> > including a future tense?
>
> Hmm, *dWis "twice" with the verb in the subjunctive?
Actually, I decided to alter the sentance. There IS a tense that
might be iterative, i.e. represnts repetition or the "again"
feeling, but I felt that the idea of "will," of the future
desiderative tense, get the feeling across more.
> > I'm not trying to put down what you're saying.
>
> This actually helps all of us get a better handle on
> IE grammar.
> = gLeN
Yay! Thanks!
So, now save for one word, here's the final version of my piece. I'm
also uploading it as a file.
So, now save for one word, here's the final version of my piece.
In Winter
G'Hyémi
English: Snow covers the field.
PIE syntax: Snow[NOM] field[ACC][Thematic] cover-primary present-
3RD-SING[Athematic]
PIE illustrative:SnéigWH-os h2eg'r-om stég-ti .
PIE simple: SnéigWHos xég'rom stégti .
English: Cold stars freeze the river into ice.
PIE syntax: cold[ADJ][NOM] star-PL[NOM][Athematic] running-
water/river[NOM-ACC.N][Athematic] ice-[INST*] freeze-3RD-PL
[Primary/Present Active][Athematic] .
PIE illustrative:gel-ios h2ste:r-s h2e:p yeg-eh1 kreus-énti .
PIE simple: gélios xsté:rs xép yégeh kreusénti .
English: Men are chilled and sad
PIE syntax: earthling-PL[NOM][Athematic] chilled[ADJ][NOM] sad
[ADJ][NOM]-AND be-3RD-PL
PIE illustrative:dHg'Hemón-s oug-o-io-s [?]-oi-os-kWe h1s-énti ,
PIE simple: dHg'Hemóns óugoios [?]-oioskWe hsénti ,
English: in the long, dark nights.
PIE syntax: long[ADJ][LOC PL] dark[ADJ][LOC PL] -AND night-[LOC
PL][Athematic] .
PIE illustrative:dl.h1gHó-yo-su nókWt-yo-su-kWe nókWt-su .
PIE simple: dl.hgHóyosu nókWtyosukWe nókWtsu .
English: When darkness and cold go away,
PIE syntax: When darkness chill-AND from/out-go-primary present-
3RD-PL ,
PIE illustrative:kWom h1regW-o-s oug-os-kWe apo-h1ei-énti ,
PIE simple: kWóm hrégWos óugoskWe apoheiénti ,
English: When ice melts into water,
PIE syntax: When ice-[NOM] water[INST*] melt-primary present-3RD-
SING ,
PIE illustrative:kWom yeg-s wédn-h1 teh1-ti ,
PIE simple: kWóm yégs wédnh téhti ,
English: When new spring comes,
PIE syntax: When new[ADJ][NOM] spring[NOM] come-primary present-
3RD-SING ,
PIE illustrative:kWom néw-o-yo-s wesr-s gWem-ti ,
PIE simple: kWóm néwoyos wésrs gWémti ,
English: I want to plow my field.
PIE syntax: field[NOM] plow-1ST-SING[FUT-DES] .
PIE illustrative:h2ég'r-os h2erh3-sye-mi .
PIE simple: xég'ros xerxWsyemi .
___
3RD-/1ST-SING. = 3rd/1st person singular (he, she, it) / (I)
3RD-PL. = 3rd person plural (they, those)
[NOM] = Nominative case (used for the subject, i.e. I am doing the
work - "I" is the subject)
[ACC] = Accusative case (used for the object, i.e. I am doing the
work - "the work" is the object)
[NOM-ACC N.] = Nominative-Accusative Neuter case (for things that
can't really be plural, like water, in nominative or accusative
position in the sentance)
*[INST] = Instrumental case (denotes "making something this way,"
i.e. "the stars the river ice-made-into freezes")
[LOC PL] = Locative Plural (the plural form of the ending)
denoting "in" or "at")
[ADJ] = Adjective
[FUT-DES] = Future Desidirative (attested in Indo-Aryan, Balto-
Slavic, & Celtic)