Re: [tied] Re: PIE voiceless aspirates

----- Original Message -----
From: "etherman23" <etherman23@...>
To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2005 11:40 AM
Subject: [tied] Re: PIE voiceless aspirates


> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Ryan" <proto-language@...>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "etherman23" <etherman23@...>
> > To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 8:35 PM
> > Subject: [tied] Re: PIE voiceless aspirates
> >
> >
> > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dariusz_piwowarczyk"
> > > <dariusz_piwowarczyk@...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Is there a necessity to reconstruct voiceless aspirates (i.e. ph th
> > > > kh) for the Indo-European proto-language?
> > > >
> > > > Many books I've come across does not postulate them for PIE. On the
> > > > contrary, my own teacher of IE Comparative Linguistics (W.
> Smoczynski)
> > > > argues that their presence is necessary in order for the system
> to be
> > > > phonologically complete (i.e. to have the opposition between the
> > > > voiced and voiceless aspirates). Can someone tell me what's the
> > > > general opinion on that subject?
> > > >
> > > > I'd be grateful for any help.
> > >
> > > The overwhelming majority opinion is that they're unnecessary.
> >
> > ***
> > Patrick:
> >
> > And that majority opinion is absolutely wrong.
> >
> > PIE *p/*t/*k and *ph/*th/*kh have different correspondents in related
> > languages; and the correspondents for *ph/*th/*kh for the greater part,
> > correspond to the _preserved_ voiceless aspirates in Old Indian.
> >
> > ***
>
> And to an extent these are preserved in Greek, Armenian, and Slavic. I
> tend to be sympathetic to the view. Unfortunately they tend to be
> rather rare.
>
> I've often wondered if PPIE had a system like /t t' tH/ (kind of like
> Korean). After t' > d, the aspirates underwent voice assimilation.
> That's why you never see sequences like tebH, but you do see sequences
> like debH.

***
Patrick:

My own view is very similar to yours with the exception that I would add
voiced/glottalized aspirates:

/t tH t' t'H/

I also believe that the aspirates even earlier were affricates: /ts t'z/.

***