Re: ka and k^a [was: [tied] *kW- "?"]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Miguel Carrasquer" <mcv@...>
To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 6:24 PM
Subject: Re: ka and k^a [was: [tied] *kW- "?"]


> On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 17:57:04 -0500, Patrick Ryan
> <proto-language@...> wrote:
>
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Miguel Carrasquer" <mcv@...>
> >> If "Brian's impression" refers to the well-known
> >> preglottalization of final stops in English, the following
> >> reference may serve to illustrate the point for American
> >> English:
> >>
> >> (From: "Perception and representation of regular variation:
> >> The case of final /t/, Meghan Sumner, Arthur G. Samuel,
> >> http://www.cs.sunysb.edu/~adaptation/sdarticle.pdf):
> >>
> >> >For example, word-final /t/ can be produced
> >> >in citation form with a fully released coronal stop,
> >> >as a glottalized coronal stop that is coarticulated with
> >> >both coronal and glottal place with no audible release,
> >> >and as a glottal stop (e.g., the medial sound in the English
> >> >word uh-oh). While it is generally accepted by linguists
> >> >that these variants are common in American
> >> >English, there is little research supporting this claim.
> >
> >***
> >Patrick:
> >
> >So, it appears, that Ladefoged's prescription
>
> description

***
Patrick:

PRESCRIPTION, Miguel: the making of rules.

***

>
> >are basically unsupported by data. Just as I suspected.
>
> There is probably _little research_ into the matter because
> there is generally little point in researching the obvious.
> The preglottalization in English (AE and RP) is obvious to
> anybody without a tin ear and with a little training in
> phonetics.


***
Patrick:

Thank God that the obvious flatness of the earth was eventually researched.

I do not have a tin ear, and I have not noticed it among GA speakers of
middle class or better.

It was also obvious that the sun went around the earth. "Obvious" has no
weight whatsoever in a discussion that, at least, pretends to be scientific.

Maybe you should have used your fine ears in a course on scientific method,
wherein you might have learned, that theories need data to be considered
useful.

>
> >***
> >
> >> >There is evidence that these three variants are regularly
> >> >occurring in the Long Island dialect of American English
> >> >(Huffman, personal communication, September 7,
> >> >2004), the population examined in our study. Huffman
> >> >(1998) found that all three variants occur regularly in
> >> >the Long Island dialect of American English. Furthermore,
> >> >at the end of an intonation phrase (i.e., word-final
> >> >position before a pause), 70% of final-/t/ words are produced
> >> >as glottalized stops, with both coronal and glottal
> >> >articulation. The remaining 30% of final-/t/ words are
> >> >split between the canonical [t] and the glottal stop.
> >
> >***
> >Patrick:
> >
> >What I get from this is a contradiction of the assertions made by
> >Ladefoged
> >who makes a following consonant necessary to fulfill the conditions for
> >[t]
> >into [?].
>
>
> No. What Ladefoged says is that "most Americans and many
> British speakers" have [?] in kitten, that London Cockney
> has [?] in butter, and that "many speakers in both countries
> have a glottal stop just before final voiceless stops in
> words such as "rap, rat, rack"."

***
Patrick:

"most"? "many"? More unsupported generalizations. Do you know what a
snow-job is, Miguel?

***



> >Here, a pause is necessary.
>
> No. "All three variants occur regularly".


***
Patrick:

"Regularly"? Did you or Ladefoged ever hear of backing statements with data,
numbers, etc.

***

> >And even then, in only _15%_ of the
> >instances does [t] become [?] - in the _Long Island_ area. Anyone who has
> >been to Long Island will doubt whether it is, in any way, typical of
> >America.
>
> Who said: "No American English dialects reduce final /t/ to
> /?/"?

***
Patrick:

On that, I stand corrected - if you consider this small, aberrant ethnic
enclave as supporting a 'dialect'. I would rather term it a geographically
limited aberrant (15%) NE dialect phenomenon.

Wait. That means we can discuss the "Little Rock dialect", spoken where I
live. Oh, let's.

***