Re: [tied] Re: Short and long vowels

From: Patrick Ryan
Message: 39267
Date: 2005-07-17

----- Original Message -----
From: etherman23
Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2005 12:14 PM
Subject: [tied] Re: Short and long vowels

--- In, "Patrick Ryan" <proto-language@......>

>   ***
>   Patrick:
>   How the laryngealists love circles!
>   What leads you to believe that the zero-grade of PIE *e:, *a:, and
*o: in Old Indian is *e, *a, and *o?
>   ***

Patrick, you seemed to be a little confused. PIE *eH1, *eH2, and *eH3
become *e:, *a:, *o:. These then develope in the normal way in the
daughter languages. In the zero-grade these become simply *H1, *H2,
and *H3. Between consonants in all languages except Greek and
Indo-Iranian these become a or 0. In Indo-Iranian these become i
(sometimes 0). In Greek they become e, a, and o respectively.  If
you're going to claim two non-coloring laryngeals you need an
explanation for the cases where Greek has e, a, and o, Indo-Iranian
has i, and the other languages have a or 0.


Well, if the confusion were profound enough, perhaps I would be confused about my being confused.
But I do not _feel_ confused.
Now, the scenario as you have it is that "PIE *eH1, *eH2, and *eH3 become *e:, *a:, *o:".
I agree completely except I think we started out with *e, *a, and *o  +*H (undifferentiated). But the result of the combination of a vowel and a 'laryngeal' resulted in long (double length) vowels.
You then say: "These then developed in the normal way in the daughter languages."
Again I agree completely.
Zero-grade involved the removal of one vowel: *men- + *tó = *mNtó
Zero-grade with the removal of one vowel from *dhe:- /dHee/, *sta:- /staa/, and *do:- /doo/ leaves *dhe-, *sta-, and *do-.
When *dheH- became *dhe:-, the 'laryngeal' sacrificed itself on the altar of length.
It is no longer there to do anything or influence anything, specifically to be present in a zero-grade — unless, of course, it is the third day thereafter.
As a consequence, the result of shortening *dhe:- cannot involve a 'laryngeal'; it cannot be *&1, *&2, or *&3 as Miguel wishes or *H1, *H2, or *H3 as you prefer since there is _no longer_ any *H1, *H2, or *H3 in the root.
As far as Indo-Iranian goes, why should avocalic *H1, *H2, or *H3 produce II *i?
What happened to the renown 'coloring' qualities?
For all practical purposes, one could say that all avocalic PIE *H produce II *i, could one not?
A question Miguel has not yet deigned to address.