--- In
cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@...>
wrote:
> alexandru_mg3 wrote:
>
> > 2. Alb. grerë 'hornet' < PIE *k'rHs-en- -> Lat. cra:bro Lith.
> > iruõ Sl. *s&ren&
> >
> > Note-1: I don't know why Dersken didn't put the laryngeal in the
PIE
> > root of Balto-Slavic forms for 'hornet'.
> >
> > Note-2: For the explanation of e in grerë we have the regular ue
> e.
>
> Where else in Albanian can we see this kind of contraction?
>
> > (via -rHse- > -ruhe- > -rue- > -re-)
>
> I. Piotr wrote:
> So here we have another reflex of intervocalic *-s- -- zero, eh?
> How is it conditioned?
The reflex is that of h > zero in pollysyllabic words that were
contracted and not of s > zero.
(but of course I still think that previously s > h in intervocalic
positions in Early Proto Albanian (by the way you didn't show us how
old, g^uh variant could be, especially when the Geg form didn't show
us any 'nasal' trace )
This contraction appears in pollysyllabic words that were
reshaped/contracted in Late Proto-Albanian.
In fact I talk here about the Same Phenomenon where d, g, b passed to
zero in intervocalic positions in pollysyllabic words.
The stages of these transformations were :
Rules:
------
a) d > dh > h > zero
Example: vëlla 'brother' < PAlb *we-lauda: < *swe lauda:
b) g > gh > h > zero
Example: Alb. rrush `grape' < PAlb *ra:guSa
c) b > bh > h > zero =>
Example: Alb. det `sea' < PAlb *deubeta
As intermediary stages we can reconstruct :
*deubeta > [eu >e] > *debeta [b > bh] > *debhetë [bh > h] > *dehetë
[h>zero] > *deetë > detë > det
all the three above transformations were available Only in the
following
Context:
----------
1. pollysyllabic words -> at least 3 syllables
2. where d,g,b (and I will add here:) 'and h' have had intervocalic
positions.
Remark:
----------
the situation with b could be a little bit different: this sound
was somehow close to w/v especially in some Latin Loans so we can
have 2 situations regarding b.
Timeframe:
-------------
It was a late process sec VI-VIII (however the lost of b happened
earlier because it has affected also Proto-Romanian: Lat. caballus >
Rom. cal <-> Alb. kalë )
Note-1: You told me in a previous message about phonetics -> now is
my turn to ask you: can you see phonetically another way to arrive
from d to zero in intervocalic positions but d > dh > h > zero =>
especially when we still can see the d > dh transformation in mono
and bi-syllabic words in 'intervocalic positions and after r'
clearly indicating us how this process was started.
To come back to the H-examples we have two pollysyllabic H-words
(originary S-words):
1. vaj-zë 'girl' < *varë < *vëharë < PIE *swesora: (Hamp)
=> that lost its h
2. vjehërr `father-in-law' < PAlb *wehura < *swesuro < PIE *swek'uro-
=> that didn't lost its h (->because is still visible :) )
Note-1: the form *varë is the only main form that could result from
vaj-zë < *varjë < *varë , if we will take also into account the
other attested variants : vashë < *varVshë and varzë.
(as you have well indicated in a previous message, the variants
are very important)
Note-2: for a similar development as in vaj-zë see bijë (variant
bilë) `daughter' < [j < rj] < *birjla: reflecting *bira < bir `son'
Note-3: The semantic shift proposed by Hamp that implied 'vajzë'
was :
'mother' => 'sister'
------------------------
and
'sister' => 'girl'
------------------
and I cannot see any fault in this logic.
1. Albanian motër 'sister' < PAlb *ma:ter `*mother' < PIE *meh2ter-
`mother'
2. Albanian vaj-zë 'girl' < OAlb. *varë < PAlb *wehara: `*sister' <
EPalb swesara: < PIE *swesor-eh2 `sister'
Now to answer to your question :
Why h wasn't lost in vjehërr but was lost in *varë ?
--------------------------------------------------------------
Because when the process described above started (sec VI-VIII),
vjehërr already has had only 2 syllables.
In contrary *varë still has had three syllables : *vë-ha-rë
(> *vë-arë > varë)
And that process was in fact a contraction.
So we had have:
1. *swek^ur-o- [s/w > zero, alternance k^<->s; o>a] > *wesura [V-s-
V > V-h-V ; e > je ] > wjehura > wje-hërr (2 syllables: intervocalic
h remains) > vjehërr
2. *swesora: [s/w > zero; o>a] > *wesara: > [V-s-V > V-h-V] >
*wehara: > vë-ha-rë (3 syllables: intervocalic h>zero as d,g,b>zero)
> *vëarë > varë
Note-2: These syllabic variation is not an ad-hoc guess here => see
also the nouns that preserved the final -ë in Albanian and the nouns
that didn't preserved it and linked this situation with a- and o-
stem endings together with different accentual mobile patterns.
Now, could I say on my turn : 'eh?' ? :)
> II. Piotr wrote:
> And how do you explain the voiced /g-/?
> Piotr
See also krunde 'bran' ~ variant: grundë (-> Romanian grunz)
(as you have said all the variants are important ...'for sensible
etymologies' :) )
This is the `second example' (-> and there are others too showing a
voiced /g/)
Best Regards,
Marius