Re: [tied] Albanian intervocalic s > h

On 6/19/05, alexandru_mg3 <alexandru_mg3@...> wrote:

> Hello Piotr,
> The existence of an intervocalic s that passed to h in Proto-
> Albanian is strongly related to the correct derivations for Alb. kohë
> and Alb. gjuhë
> (also vjehërr is a strong candidate too)
>
>
> I. Alb. hohë - Sl. c^as& - OPruss. kisman < PIE *ke:s-a:
> =========================================================
>
> See Derksen Derivation: PIE *ke:s-
> ====================================
> "Proto-Slavic form: c^as&
>
> Old Prussian: ki:sman `time' [Accs]
>
> Other cognates: Alb. kohë `time'
>
> Proto-Balto-Slavic reconstruction: ke:s-"
>
>
> See Demiraj derivation: PIE *keh1s-(u-)
> ========================================
> "
> Albanian form: kohë [f] (tg)
>
> Meaning: time; span; weather; epoch
>
> Proto-Albanian: ke:ua: {1}
>
> Page in Demiraj AE: 221
>
> IE reconstruction: keh1s-(u-)
>
> Meaning of the IE root: time?
>
> Page in Pokorny: 636
>
> Other IE cognates: OCS c^as& `time'; OPr. ki:sman `time'
> "
> Demiraj preferred s > zero and u > h but the original root is
> considered ke:s- too.
>
> Your proposed derivation was:
> ==============================
> *keh1k^-sah2 > kohë 'time' (cf. Slavic *c^asU 'id.')
>
>
> Now to analyse your derivation:
> =======================
> 1. For kohë you have used an additional k^-sa: in place of -sa: again
> only not to explain the h from a simple s
> But there is no need to add an 'additional k^' (see also Demiraj
> and Derksen derivations above using ONLY an *V-s-V).
> So when I previously have talked about 'additional k^ used as
> an 'workaround' in your derivation' I made reference at the k^ in your
> derivation above.
>
> 2. In addition : an original k^s will give in Albanian th and NOT h:
> k^s > tss > ts > th see:
> Alb. djathë and djath-të 'right' but also ndjath 'to the right' < PAlb
> *deca- /detsa/ < *decsa /detssa/ < PIE dek^s-
>
> See also Albanian ith < PIE *eg^hs (for a similar output: g's > dzs
> > ts > th )
>
> 3. So you need to use an original *sk^ or a *sk but not a *k^s in
> order to obtain the h.
> Only sk^ or sk gave h via a LATER Metathesis to k(^)s.
> But this later k^s (I don't think that existed, it was only ks, but
> let's accept k^s too for the argumentation) it was at least another
> k^s with no link with the original one that merged already k's >
> c /ts/ > th
>
> Note-1: In a very good article (2001) Lubotsky came back to Meillet
> position showing that there was no oposition between sk' and sk in
> Satem Languages.
> So sk' > sk already in IE. But anyway an original PIE *k^s will not
> generate h in Proto-Albanian, you need an original sk^/sk for this.
>

[AK]
You are wrong. PIE *plok'-so > Alb. plah/plaf 'thick covering/rug',
suffixed form <pëlhurë> 'woven cloth, , textile', due to my metathesis
of liquids L - V > V - L / R -V > V- R, when vocal after liquid pass
in unstressed position. See also *(s)pok'-so > pah 'view,
perspective'.
About PIE *dek's-to > Alb. i djathtë 'right' and *eg'hs-to > Alb.
jashtë 'out', if we accept Jens' rule that *e yields /ja/ after
secondary cluster, than *e > ja is regular. Also you must take into
consideration that in these examples we have syllabic structure CVCCCV
that was normally reduced to CVCCV, so as /k'/ as well as /g'h/ are
dropped.
As I have said, Alb. <kohë> 'time' is in many contexts fully synonymic
with Alb. <moshë> 'age', the reason why we must also respect Latin
<cascus, -a, -um> 'old, ancient, primitive'. This is an argument more
that we must back up PIE recunstructions *keH1s-k'-aH2, for /*k'/ >
Sl. /s/.

> II. swek^uro > swesuro
> ========================
> For swek^uro you have used a supposed metathesis wesk^ura to obtain a
> sk^ for the Albanian h in place of a simple s
> But you don't have any other example of such Metathesis: swe > wes
>
> Also a derivation like the one below don't raise any issue:
> *swek^ura < [alternance k^<->s as in thumbull<-> sumbull] < *swesura >
> [sw>w] > *wesura < [V-s-V > V-h-V] > *wehura
>

[AK]
If we have the metathesis in *ker-w- > *kwer- (-erw- > -wer-) in Alb.
<sorkadhe> and *g'ha:gwh > *g'hwa:gh > Alb. <zog> 'bird' (-a:gwh- >
wagh-|), I can't see no reason to not support also *swe- > *sew-.

> III. gjuhë
> ===========
> I don't know your derivation for Alb. gjuhë 'tongue' - but I'm sure
> that a k^, k^-sa:, s-k^a: will appear as an workaround to obtain the h.
>
> Alb. gjuhë is very probable cognate with Sl. go:ls& -> Once again we
> have s in both forms with no additional k^ etc...
>
> See Derksen:
> =============
> "Proto-Slavic form: go:ls&
> Old Church Slavic: glas& `voice' [m o]
> Indo-European reconstruction: golH-so-
> Page in Pokorny: 350
> Other cognates: W galw `call' [verb]
> "
>
> For the derivation of Albanian gjuhë:
> PIE *gl.sa: (zero-grade) > *gulsa: [l. > ul > lu] > *glusa: [gl > gj;
> V-s-V > V-h-V] > gjuhë
>
> For both forms, Slavic and Albanian, we have only an original s (no
> trace of k^), that became intervocalic s in Albanian after l. > ul > lu
> (ul>lu because otherwise an *ls will never gave h in Albanian (also gl
> > gj is the regular output))

[AK]
Alb. <gjuhë> 'laguage, tongue', to my view, is derived from PIE *del-
'to recount' from suffixed zero-grade form *dlH-sk'a: > glH-sk'a:
(*-rH- > ur and *-lH- > ul, otherwise syllabic *r. > ri, *l. > li and
aspirated syllabic *r.H > ar and *l.H > al).

> Best Regards,
> Marius Alexandru

Konushevci