From: pielewe
Message: 37720
Date: 2005-05-07
> Then how about vice-versa: to any German, PlattdeutschI quite agree, as I said, it is just a matter of definition. If you
> (that's the vernacular for Niederdeutsch/Low German) is
> also Deutsch (i.e. Moin-Moin in Hamburg or Moin in Munich is
> perceived to be the same despite 1,000 years of "Kleinstaaterei,"
> which is much more than federalism)? By this token, Flanders,
> The Netherlands cum Danmaerk, Sweden, Norway & Island are also
> Deutschland. And don't we forget... UK, USA, Canada, Australia,
> New Zealand, Namibia and South Africa. :-)
> Quite a curious phenomenon (that I, for a certain period of time,Yes, but that was years ago. (Luxemburg doesn't belong here, by the
> saw myself years ago at in areas near Venlo and Aachen): local
> Germans, whose Plattdeutsch kind of dialects are pretty close
> to the neighboring dialects beyond the border by and large don't
> try mumbling anything in a common Low Dutch/Deutsch (unlike
> Slavs such as Czechs, Slovaks, Poles), whereas virtually every
> or every second Dutchman or Vlaamser from Belgium and Luxemburg
> is able to speak German.
> ... anyone in good command of German (even someoneI don't exclude the possibility that there is some asymmetry here and
> who has no idea of the elementary Plattdeutsch rules, such as
> <ik, wat, dat, ete, make, ut dem hus, janz, jestern, to, he...>),
> is able to understand a lot reading a Dutch text (listening,
> agreed, is a bit more difficult).
> Flemish/Dutch is almostThat sounds reasonable.
> as intelligible as Schwizer Düütsch, Jiddisch and Transylvanian
> "Saxon" (which is actually Rheinfränkisch, i.e. close to
> Mosel & Luxemburg German).
> Which of these do you perceive closer to Dutch? -> LetzelburgischThat is very difficult simply because I lack the necessary
> Deutsch (Luxemburg German) or the Plattdeutsch spoken, say, in
> the Oche-Kölle-Düsseldorf or in Münsterland regions. (The Rhineland
> Platt is separated from the Münster Platt by the Ruhr Basin; I
> mean linguistically, although Ruhr people also have some features
> belonging to the 1st Lautverschiebung and are located North of the
> line Aachen-Köln-Berlin-Königsberg (Kaliningrad), i.e. the border
> Low German-Middle German.)
> And finally, I reiterate my question (from a strict linguisticalAs I said before, you would have to stage an experiment. Purely
> and... psychological point of vies): taking into consideration
> that Dutch is so much closer to German dialects than the rest of
> the Germanic idioms, would it be perceived as false or gross
> exageration if one said Dutch is actually sort of a German
> dialect?
> (Here, it is necessary to forget for a moment theI've always found it slightly sinister that my compatriots tend to
> recent sad history & memory that prompt the Dutchman shout
> to a German "Gib mir mein Fahrrad [bicycle] zurück!" So, only the
> linguistic viewpoint.)
> PS: A propos politics & history: many years ago I was a touristI can't say anything about Luxemburg, but I do recall that there was
> with a group of friends in Luxemburg. A mixed group: lads & gals
> from Romania and Poland. In a hotel, where we (i.e. some of us;
> me & other 2 slept in a Ford Transit :-)) in the end could sleep,
> the personnel wouldn't speak German. It was me who negotiated
> everything in *English* with the daughter of the owner of the house.
> But the other day, as those people realised that we weren't
> Germans despite our passports, esp. since our language, when
> communicating with one another was Romanian or Polish (and German
> only between the Romanians and Poles), those Vlaams people all
> of a sudden could speak a (nearly) perfect German, with
> idiosyncrasies that resembled those in the neighboring Rheinland.
> Moreover, their own Dutch-like idiom was strikingly close to
> the Rhineland Platt. [I cannot say now whether they spoke Flemish
> or Letzelburger Deutsch.] The very same evening, after the
> conversation in English, the owner of the hotel issued a few
> orders to a subordinate, a guy called... Hans, and their idiom
> sounded in such a striking way that we, the guests, at once
> understood that those people could also speak German. But we
> understood afterwards why the fuss: the population over there
> still resented Teutonic deeds during two world wars (esp. WW2).