Re: [tied] Bakkhos etymology

You may suggest it but I do not think the suggestion will meet with much interest.

 

Patrick

----- Original Message -----

From: Joao S. Lopes

To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2005 3:39 PM

Subject: Re: [tied] Bakkhos etymology

I sugest Dionysos (variants Dionys, Dionnys, Diounys) as from

*Diwo-sunus " Zeus's son" or "Sky's son"

*Diwosunus > *Diwohunus > Diwounus, after dissimilation Diwonnu-, Diwo(:)nu-.

 

 

Joao SL

Patrick Ryan <proto-language@...> wrote:

I will try to explain my position.

 

For the Greek, it is a loanword through how many (?) languages from Sumerian anšu/e/i (or perhaps from some unidentified Anatolian language that provided it to both). It was heard by the Greeks as /onus/, and misanalyzed as onu-s, nominative; regularized as ón-os, but had the odd genitive ónou.

 

But in Diónusos, the s-stem was accepted: Di-onus-os. However -onus- cannt reflect an IE stem because all IE *u derives from zero-grades of *w (CVCVC). For Greek, we are left with the conclusion that it is a loanword.

 

Pokorny lists a root *onos-, 'burden', however no such root is possible in IE which has almost exclusively CVC. *onos- would be *H3enos-, i.e. CVCVC. But, of course, there is stative *-s, so that the root might be *H?en- ('*bring', distantly cognate with Egyptian jn(w), 'carry') + *-s, stative(?).

  

Of course, there is PIE *H2ensa:, *H2ensi, 'transport sling'. This is probably the source of Latin asinus (metathesis from *ansi-us with assimilation *as(s)sinus).

 

I would emend Sumerian anšu to *ansu, representing the compound *ân(u), 'water jar' + su, 'pull(er)', the ultimate beast of burden named for his principal(?) task.

 

As *a(:)nsu, loaned into an Anatolian language that metasthesized it into *anus; and that language further modified it into *onus, combined it with Di, 'god', where the Greeks heard Di-onus to which they added nominative -o-s.

 

By the way, probably kumiss is preferable (< Russian kumys < Tatar kumyz).

 

As for your other questions, who knows? We do know that the Sumerians were there at a very early date. Would they have fermented jenny's milk in the absence of horses? Yes, if they had known of fermented mare's milk.

 

The Sumerian had wine also.

 

That is a pretty sketchy outline. Does it make any sense?

 

What do you prefer? Jen and tonic? Or a wine-cooler? Or a Bloody Marey?

 

Patrick

 

----- Original Message -----

From: david_russell_watson

To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2005 12:54 AM

Subject: Re: [tied] Bakkhos etymology

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Ryan" <proto-language@......>
wrote:
>
> Dionysus is his son in this function. One of the major sub-aspects
> is as god of wine.  He is associated with the thyrsus, the pine-
> cone tipped staff. Rosin come from the pine. And retsina is what
> the Greeks drink. His divine madness is simply that he is a mean
> drunk (berserker) on furlough from the wars. In early vase-
> paintings, horse-men (ass-men) are Dionysus' companions. I believe
> his name means Divine Ass (Di-onus-os)

If the Greek word 'onos' is what's intended here with 'onus',
then the stem is actually 'on-'. What sort of suffix is '-us-'? 

> from the fact that ass mare's milk was his earliest intoxicant
> (kumiss) in the Caucasus.

Is that so? I've never heard of a koumiss made from jenny's
milk before, only mare's milk. Though, was koumiss of any sort
known in the Caucasus before the arrival there of Altaic and
Iranian peoples from the steppes? It was my understanding that
the Caucasus has a very long history of viniculture, perhaps
even the longest. 

David






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