I see where you are going with that. Very interesting.
I, too, of course, endorse a pre-PIE stage with three vowels: *e, *a, *o;
of course, vowel height is the only real difference; and Sumerian shows i, a, u
for these, so you may be closer to the truth.
My first question: do you assume original long vowels? or do you assume
they are from some phonological process like stress-accent? I assume no long
vowels until laryngeals begin disappearing.
I notice you seem to be suggesting that laryngeals develop out of voiceless
stops in some positions. Would the other voiceless stops in the same positions
also generate *H1? or are you suggesting a tripartite process: *k, in the same
process, for example to *H2, and *p to *H3?
Do you believe that *H1, *H2, and *h3 had phonemic status, for instance,
initially?
Without the Hittite evidence, I deduce laryngeals for pre-PIE through
Egyptian cognates showing j (pre-PIE *Ha/*He) or h (pre-PIE *Ho) with *H
deriving from even earlier *?,*h, *¿, and *H (dotted *h).
In "month", I believe like you, apparently, that it is a derivation from
*me:-, "measure", with you presumably preferring derivation from the extended
form *met-.
I believe that *me-, in turn, is derived from *me + *?a, 'stative', so that
*me:- is "measured". Further derivation with *na, 'individualizer', produces
*me:n-, which, I think can be seen in Egyptian mjn, 'today' ('measured thing'),
and, of course *me:n-, 'month'. Of course, the indefatigable IE's had to add
more onto that!
Whereupon, the collective *-t(o) was added, producing *me:'net-, with
Ablaut *me'not-; whereupon nominative *-s(o) was added, producing
*me:'nots-. The cluster was eliminated, lengthening the preceding vowel:
*me:no:t-. *me:s- is probably *me:- + *s(o), nominative; *me:ns-,
*me:n- +*s(o), nominative. *me:nes-, genitive, is simply *me:n- + *se-, genitive
(*me:'nes-); *me:neses-, simply *me:'nes- + *so, nominative, +*se, genitive:
*me:ne'ses-.
But to get back to your example, does not underived *me:- suggest an *e
quality in your first derivation: **mátnu:-t-?
And, in connection with the vowel-glides, do you assume as I do, that PIE
*k^- is a result of pre-PIE *ke?
I presume you believe that *gW and *kw are pre-PIE
phonemes? Or is it the result of a *w-glide?
Patrick
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 6:20
AM
Subject: Re: [tied] Dissimilation of
gW/kWVw to gVw/kVw
On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 04:49:46 -0500, Patrick Ryan
<proto-language@...>
wrote:
>Well, let me ask this question: do you know of any IE root
in the form *gWew-?
>There are usually several for every other IE
consonant (except *kW and *w).
As long as we're speculating, my view on
the emergence of
labiovelars in PIE is the following.
The first
stage occurred when pre-PIE still had the vowels
*u and *u:. A
stressed *ú(:) labialized a following coronal
(e.g. **mátnu:t- >
*méh1not-, but *matnút-a:s > *meh1nésos,
with *s < *tW). A
following velar was possibly always
labialized, even if the *u(:) was
unstressed.
The second phase occurred after Pre-PIE *i and *u
(also
unstressed *i: and *u:) had developed to *(y)& and
*(w)&,
and *í: and *ú: to *(y)e: and *(w)o:. A preceding velar
was
labialized. But *u before a following *w, **u did not
give
*w&, but simple *& (> *e). We see that in the
u-stems,
where the e.g. the genitive **-ú(w)-as gives **-&w&s
>
*-eu-s, not **-w&w&s > **-weus (but nominative **-u-z
>
**-w&-s > *-us). That would explain the lack of
*gWew-.
The "cow" word had a long *u:, where the develpment
was
apparently different: **g-ú:-w- > **g-wó:-w >
*gWów-.
=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
mcv@...
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