Re: [tied] Re: Stative Verbs, or Perfect Tense

>> "On emploie le parfait pour désigner un ensemble d'actions qui
>> aboutissent à un état présent: epeì kakà pollà pépontha ."
>Does not the word <epeì> 'after, après que' give it away? How can
>something be reported as being 'after' the present? This must
>contain a past-tense element.

Doesn't epei here mean "since=because" rather than "when"? So it is
describing a present condition.

>Especially the example with léloipen seems to show this (Il.
>1.235): "This stick - it has never produced (literally 'never
>produces') leaves or branches since it first left the stump in the
>mountains, nor will it blossom". This is a clear reference to a
>single moment in the past.

Or to a tiimeless condition? "It has never produced leaves because of this
condition"

>Another case of the same kind seems to be:
>Il. 21.81 : hé:de duo:dekáte:, hót' es Ílion eilé:loutha / pollà
>pathó:n "it is now the twelfth day since I came to Ilios after much
>suffering". Achilles is looking back on the day he arrived in Troy;
>that must be in the past.

This seems to me to be more clearly present. "This day ..." is a kind of
clue.

However, I'm happy to accept that there are examples of past reference
perfects in Homer - the language is very mixed. I also like your comment
about the perfect:
"This all points to a mixing of the points of view, in that an event
may be regarded as something occurring in the past while at the same
time having after-effects of importance for the present, and the
linguistic form of a sentence may even be inconsistent in its choice
of adverbs and other accompanying pointers."

Peter