Re: *ap-/*up-/*ip- , rivers in -r, JURA, JARA

Have anybody thoughts about Baltic jura - the sea. Also in Baltic
territory are some hydronyms: rivers Jara, Jura and etc...

Juru'oti - to welter, to wave.

RugiuN laukas juruoja - the field of rye is waving.


--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Ryan" <proto-
language@...> wrote:

> It is useful advice that once one is in a hole, one should stop

digging.

>
> Patrick
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: tgpedersen<mailto:tgpedersen@...>
> To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 6:21 AM
> Subject: [tied] *ap-/*up-/*ip- , rivers in -r
>
>
>
>
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > CVC-VC means
> > > a root (CVC)
> > > with a suffix (-VC)
> > >
> > > cf PIE *up-er > Proto-Celtic *wer-.
> > >
> > > Torsten
> > >
> > > Did you not assert that *per- was derived from *(a/u)per-?
> > >
> >
> > Make it VC-VC then.
>
>
> Actually I think *h2ap- or *ap- is a loan, not an IE root.
>
>
> Kuhn lists the following names of rivers (and assorted lakes and
> mountains:
> Durius (Duero) Spain
> Duranius (Dordogne) S. Fr.
> Duri (2x) N. Iral.
>
> Upper Po valley:
> Stura (several), Nure, Curone, Taro, Ira, Stirone, Lacus Larius

(Lake

> Como), Maria (Mera), Lura, Monte Duria
>
> Lower Po valley: nothing
>
> Rhone valley: nothing
> Mountains to the west of it: many examples of -ur-, -ar-, -ir-
>
> Mountains of Switzerland, around Aare
> Dura (Thur) (-> Rhine)
> Suhre (-> Aare)
> Jura Mountains
> with suffix:
> Orbe, Surb (-> Aare), Urnäsch (-> Sitter -> Thur), Uerke, Murten
> (town), Murtensee, Sorne (-> Birs -> Rhine), Sarine, Sarnen

(town),

> Sarnersee, ri (town), Urnersee, 5 x Murg.
>
> with -k- suffix, especially many in the Nertherlands, in an area
> delimited by
> w: Ourcq (-> Marne)
> e: Orke (-> Eder -> Weser)
> s: Ource (-> Seine)
> n: Urk (island)
> many names of the type
> Urk-, Burk-, Kurk-, Lurk-
> Ark-, Bark-, Kark-, Sark-, Mark-, Wark-
>
> in the mountains to the right of the Rhine
> Or-pe/Urf, Dor-pe, Sor-pe, Lor-fe,
> Ar-pe, Mar-pe, Sar-pe.
>
> in Lithuania:
> Durupis, Nurupis, Surupis, Urkupis.
>
>
> Kuhn: the areas of the ur-/ar-/(ir-) names are relic ares.
>
> He identifies the -pe/-fe suffix (and Lituanian -up-?) as PIE

*ap-

> "water" and thinks therefore these composites with the non-IE

ar-/ur-

> placename roots as late. But the suffix is ap-/up- and is

therefore

> itself an non-IE ar-/ur- word-
>
>
> I think *ap-/*up- is the origin of the

preverbs/pre/postpositions *ab

> and *up. Since it means also "river", *ab/*up was loaned as a

noun

> and perhaps in a single or two cases (locative, allative?). So

what

> we see in Or-pe etc is perhaps "on" or "up the Or- river",

depending

> on whatever old case used to be discernible in the now eroded -

pe.

>
> In a language with cases, the number of "semantic cases" can be
> extended by using a noun indicating position, in a positional or
> directional case, as a post/preposition of a noun which is then

in

> the genitive or some other suitable case, eg. Finnish 'Porin ja

Turun

> välillä' "between Pori and Turku" (-n genitive, välilleä
> adessive "on the middleroad", thus "on the middleroad of Pori

and

> Turku"; 'keskellä järveä' "in the middle of the lake", keski-
> "middle" in the adessive, järveä inessive of järve "lake).
> But one might also see keskellä as an adverb "centrally"
> and järveä as "on the lake".
>
>
> *ab/*up in suitable case also behaves like an adverb (one
> might want to compare it to a similar "international"
> system of directional adverbs, that of 'starboard'
> (Danish styrbord) and 'port' (German Backbord, Danish
> bagbord, French babord)).
>
>
> This means that -r of all the non-IE ur-/ar- place names may
> be a genitive or locative marker (if I can explain away the
> -k- of Lithuanian Urkupis). IE does have a relic -r locative
> in pronouns (here, there, where, Lat. cur).
>
> Cf.
> German dar-auf "thereon"
> Dutch daar-op "thereon"
> rivername Or-pe "on the U river(?)" etc
>
> which means going back to the strange fact that the Germanic
> languages use this old locative(?) with 'floating' (Dutch) or
> postposed prepositions, for which there is no logical
> explanation.
>
> Especially Dutch is nuts about this preference for locatives

with

> prepositions.
> Not only
> er-voor
> hier-voor
> daar-voor
> waar-voor
> as in the other Germanic languages, but also
> ergens voor lit. "somewhere for" ie. "for something"
> nergens voor lit. "nowhere for" ie. "for nothing"
> overal voor lit. "everywhere for" ie. "for everything"
>
>
> Perhaps -r is the mark of a genitive/locative used as the

subject

> marker in stative sentences in an active/stative language?
>
> "water" has at least four forms in IE:
> *w-d- : Greek hudro-, water
> *w-g- : Greek hugro-
> *w-s-
> *w-r- : Latin u:ri:na (Varro: u:rina:ri est merger in aquam),

urium

> (Pliny: vitium lavandi est, si fluens amnis lutum importet, id

genus

> terrae urium vocant, Iberian?, cf river Urium in Sp.),

urceus "pot",

> urna, Greek oureo: "I urinate", Skt. vá:r, vá:ri, Tokh A wa:r,
> OPr wurs "pond", ON úr "drizzle". Cf. Basque ur "water", irura
> "vega, valle". Cf the town Aurbach <- Ur-augia; the latter is

then

> PIE *akW- "water", which, being a variant of *ap-, also must be a
> loan from the ur-/ar- language.
>
> One is tempted to consider Latin 'urbs' which has had a whole
> supposed substratum language in Latin named after it: Urbian, as
> related to the ur-/ar- language.
>
>
> Torsten
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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