Re: Danish enigma

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "willemvermeer" <wrvermeer@...>
wrote:

>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...>

wrote:

>
>
> [in the context of progressive constructions]
>
>
> > I have a question about Swedish.
> > Danish has a progressive tense construction 'Jeg er ved at

skrive'

> > literally "I am at to write". Apart from the infinitive taking

the

> > place of the verbal noun or gerund this is identical to the
> English,
> > Dutch and Northwest German 'I am writing', 'Ik ben aan het
> > schrijven', 'Ich bin am Schreiben'. As far as I know Swedish does
> not
> > have such a 'locativic' progressive construction; am I right?
> >
>
>
> The Dutch construction, which is used very often, appears to

suggest

> some kind of active involvement. If you say "Hij is aan het slapen"
> ('Han er ved at sove') you convey the suggestion that the person
> involved is not just sleeping, but has gone to bed with the

specific

> purpose of sleeping. You get a somewhat jarring effect if you

combine

> it with verbs denoting involuntary actions, for instance, although

it

> is possible. Is that the case with the Danish construction too?

Yes.

>
>
> (It is my impression that Dutch and Danish are extremely close as

far

> as the system of verbal tenses is concerned, much closer than Dutch
> and English, not to mention Dutch and German. To give an example,

my

> wife Trille, who grew up bilingual French/Danish, always gets the
> difference between the simple preterite and the perfect exactly
> right, which must come from her Danish because French is
> fundamentally different.)
>

The merger of the imperfect and perfect in the spoken language is a
French and (South) German thing. Swiss German has almost no trace of
the imperfect left. The Scandinavian use of imperfect and perfect
match those of English and Dutch (but is there a tendency in Dutch to
use the perfect, eg. 'Ik ben hier gisteren geweest' "I was here
yesterday"? My Dutch is getting rusty.)

> Alongside this 'locativistic' construction there is a construction
> (equally frequent) which adds information about position (zitten,
> liggen, staan, hangen, and one verb of movement: lopen 'walk'),
> e.g. "hij ligt/zit te slapen", or, if you want to, "hij
> staat/hangt/loopt te slapen" ("hij staat te slapen" is a frequent

way

> of saying that somebody is not paying attention in a situation

where

> standing is the default position, e.g. while playing soccer). Does
> anybody know anything like this anywhere else in Germanic?

(Although

> generally speaking Dutch is a language with very few frills, the
> constant preoccupation with position is difficult for foreigners to
> get a hang of.)

Danish has exactly the same, but as a parallel construction:
Han står og sover.
Han sidder og sover.
Han ligger og sover.
I believe they are acceptable, but used less in Swedish and Norwegian.
In Danish, with all types of position and movement, you have to
choose between 'stå/sidde/ligge' and 'stille/sætte/lægge',
respectively. With the verbs of movement, the choice depends on the
verb used to describe the eventual position of the object. I'v heard
that Southwest German (Swabian etc) makes a similar discrimination.
No 'mettre' or 'put' here. (One interesting theory I heard was that
the fact that they only have one verb for moving things is why the
French use their hands so much ;-).

>
>
> The big disappointment connected with this profusion of progressive
> constructions is that it is of no help whatever for learning

English,

> as one can easily notice by listening to speakers of Dutch trying

to

> speak English. The standard solution is, I think, always to use a
> progressive construction, which, unfortunately, does not get one
> anywhere and often gives rise to misunderstandings.

The progressive tense constructions in Dutch and Danish are optional.
The English one is mandatory.


Torsten