Re: [tied] The "Mother" Problem

----- Original Message -----

From: Rob

To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 9:56 AM

Subject: Re: [tied] The "Mother" Problem

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Ryan" <proto-
language@......> wrote:

>   I would like to propose as a way to understand these anomalies 
> that we attempt to analyze the components of these compounds.

Good to hear from you again, Mr. Ryan.

Thank you, Rob. 'Patrick' will do nicely.

<snip>

You bring up the root *ter- '*make'.  That made me think that maybe
the IE nomen agentis form with *-tér/*-tor could be, instead of an
earlier active participle, a compound consisting of a verbal noun
(root noun?) and a root noun from *ter-.  So, for example,
*xégto:r 'driver' would come from *xeg-ter-s, lit. 'one who makes a
drive'.

That would be my hypothesis. In addition, where it is associated with the meaning 'one of two', I suggest the same dervation but with emphasis on the underlying idea of 'turning'

<snip>

>   If combined with *bheH2r-, 'what protrudes, **male genital', we
> obtain *bhar- + *á:tr.-, which would give *bhrá:tr.-, 'male part 
> of the family'. To connect it with 1. *bher- is rather too broad.
> What, pray tell, did the primeval son 'carry'?

Firewood, perhaps?  Supplies for horses and/or livestock?

 

A 'brother''s sexual characteristics will almost never change (Cybele's devotees excepted) but any carrying would change with the needs of the moment and only fuzzily identify 'brother'.

<snip>

One would think that a denominal verb from this root would be formed
from an attached verbal element, such as 'pull' (given the nature of
the action of milking).

Yes. Cf. Ind. dógdhi,'milks'. But Ind. duháti hints that one function of the thematic vowel may have been to verbalize root nouns.

>   If combined with *dheugh-, 'pair of breasts', we obtain *dheugh-
> + *á:tr.-, which would give *dhughá:tr.-, '(pair of) breasts of  
> the family'.

The mother also had (a pair of) breasts, though.

 

Yes,but 'mother' was probably using them (nursing).

<snip>

Are there roots *xe- and *me- for 'family' and 'breast',
respectively, in IE?

No. Probably not even in PIE. One must go back farther to pre-PIE before the mandatory CVC-root form established itself. For a reduplicated *mama, what can we assume but that **ma had some meaning sometime? For *xe (I would prefer *H2e, indicating the a-vocalism), the existence of *am[m]a, *ap[p]a, *at[t]a, *akka:, all suggest a role for initial *a-.

<snip>

>   Finally, we have 'father', the 'feeder'. Rather than connecting
> it with *pa:-, I would connect it with the derived root *p6-t-   
> (*pH2-té-), which, when combined, gives us *pH2-t-á:tr.-. For    
> euphony, this was simplified to  *pH2{t}-tér.

Is that derived stem a frequentative?  If not, then what?

I will settle for Brugmann: a generally active participle which can be used as an adjective or noun.

<snip>

 

Patrick