--- alex <
alxmoeller@...> wrote:
> george knysh wrote:
>
> > GK: I would like to add that the expression
> > "chased away" also suggested that organized
> Wallachian
> > communities (with leaders) existed somewhere
> beyond
> > the boundaries of the "Hungarian Land".
> Microanalysis
> > of the Tale's text indicates that this "somewhere"
> > started with Bulgaria south of the Danube. It is
> the
> > Onogurs, according to Sylvester, who "chased away"
> the
> > Wallachians from the territory of southern Romania
> and
> > Moldavia in the 7th c. But the Bulgarians did no
> > "chasing away". Which implies that the Wallachian
> > aristocracy continued to exist south of the
> Danube,
> > along with Slavs and dominant Bulgars. And this
> was
> > surely in line with historical reality. This is
> why
> > the Kyivan policy makers of 1116, intent on
> reviving
> > the imperial dreams of Svyatoslav, were suddenly
> > interested in the Wallachians.
>
>
> are these facts not a bit too early my dear?
*****GK: No. They're OK. The Bulgars were a factor
north of the Danube from the late 5th century, and
increasingly in the 6th and 7th (except for the Avar
interlude). By the mid-7th c. the Dnipro became a
loose frontier between the Bulgar/Onogur alliance and
the Khazars (even before the Bulgars invaded the
Byzantine realm.) So when Sylvester says that the
"White" Ugrians (=Onogurs) are known from the time of
Heraclius (610-641) he is essentially correct. As late
as 894 these Onogurs are called the "concives" of the
Bulgars (north of the Danube) /so the Chronicle of
Fulda/. The Magyars, on the other hand, Sylvester's
"Black" Ugrians, make their first appearance on the
Ukrainian steppes in the early 9th c., as associates
of the Khazars, defending the Khazar frontier against
Bulgar/Onogur aggression.******
the
> Magyars hearing about
> Petchenges coming over them, they changed the route
> and went to Kiev where
> they conquested the city.
*****GK: This is a later fantasy based on the Tale of
Bygone Years' statement about the "Ugrian Hill" south
of Kyiv. At that time (895-905) Kyiv was controlled by
its first Varangian dynasty and local Slav associates.
The Magyars never came here, let alone conquered the
city. But for quite a long time the Kyivan Slavs
(Ulichi) were neighbours to the "White" Ugrians
further south. And they also lost some territory to
them in the 8th century (there is archaeological
evidence for this). Perhaps the "Ugrian Hill" was a
defensive lookout post.******
Later with the help of
> Rutenians they have been
> brought ( the Trutenians showed them the way) to
> Panonia.
*****GK: Now THIS is indeed anachronistic. There were
no "Ruthenians" in Galicia in the late 9th century.
Only Croats (one of the many surviving Avar Croatias,
actually local Slavs). Only after the Kyivan conquest
in the late 10th century did Galicia become
"Ruthenian".*****
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