Re: [tied] Re: Plural of 'vatra' in Aromanian -> I found trace of '

On 04-12-13 13:00, alexandru_mg3 wrote:

> Also, if we talk here about 'Authorities' : Rosetti at his turn
> talks about 'common words' between Romanian and Albanian but he
> didn't try to indicate a loan direction between the 2 languages (for
> good reasons, see in ILR his explanations). Also he said in his ILR's
> dedicated chapter that this 'common words' are the OLDEST words in
> Romanian (so older than the Latin words)

I reject such romantic notions. Latin (which is the main copmponent of
Romanian) and Proto-Albanian (which is a substratal admixture) are
equally "old". Of course Romanian may also have borrowed words from the
more recent stages of Albanian. Areal diffusion in the Balkan/Carpathian
region has never stopped. Polish and Ukrainian-speaking highlanders use
the word <vatra> as well.

> and his supposition is that
> these words belong to an Ancient Balkan Language that preceeded both
> Albanian and Romanian.

Yes. Proto-Albanian naturally precedes Albanian, just as Latin precedes
Romanian.

>>[traces of e] It isn't a surprise. It could be expected especially
>>in dialects transitional between Aromanian and Daco-Romanian
>
> Northern part of Aromanian Dialect means northern part of
> Macedonia so faraway for any Daco-Romanian speakers.

Megleno-Romanian is by all accounts an intermediate dialect between
Aromanian proper and Daco-Romanian. The present-day geographical
separation between MR and DR doesn't change the fact that the former is
in many ways close to "standard" Romanian.

> Please note also
> that Aromanian variant 'veatrã' is related to the singular form (no
> trace in Romanian regarding any 'e' in the singular form) and
> Romanian 'vetre' is related to the plural form (no trace in Aromanian
> forms related to this).

My guess is that the singular <veatrã> corresponds not to the Aromanian
plural but to the "standard" plural <vetre> due to Daco-Romanian
influence, even if the latter isn't explicitly mentioned in your source.
I'm not a specialist in Balkan Romance dialects, but it doesn't seem
difficult to figure out where <veatrã> comes from.

> Your 'most economic reconstruction' don't explained at all:
>
> 1. the derived meanings of 'vatra' that exists both in Albanian
> and in Romanian : 'homeland','place of my ancestors','center
> of','originar place' indicating and 'own' particle in the inner
> meaning of the word.

Leaving aside the semantic accuracy of this description and the fact
that the notion of "hearth" has similar connotations
cross-linguistically, why should it be surprising for a borrowed word to
retain its metaphorical meanings in the receptor language?

> 2. Not only initial v but also the alternance va-vo in Albanian
> dialects.

However we explain it, it's simply a fact of Albanian historical
phonology, cf. the identical development of Latin loans with initial
/o/. Whatever explains the voj/vaj and vorr/varr, the same explanation
holds for vatër/votër. Your "etymological /ea/" is total baloney.
There's no independent evidence for such a vowel or even for such a
phenomenon (Romanian preserving a trace of an uncontracted vowel
sequence of pre-Albanian origin).

Piotr

PS. I'm leaving town for a few days and won't be able to appear on
Cybalist till Monday.