Hung. var-oS [Re: Rom. tsarca - Lit. s^árka]

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Abdullah Konushevci"
<a_konushevci@...> wrote:

>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, g <st-george@...> wrote:
> > > The members who know Hungarian would probably be better
> respondents,
> > > but if 'város' is not borrowed from Iranian then it is related

to

> > > *uras - bull/gardian of heard.
> > >
> > > Peter P
> >
> > I suppose <vár> < PIE *uer (thus being related inter alia to

Ger.

> Wehr.
> > (My memory doesn't help me, but I must've read this somwhere

some

> > time.)
> >
> > The main & original thing is <vár>. <Város> is the suffixation

of

> it:
> > with -<vowel>s [S], in this case -os [oS]. So the "burg,

fortress"

> > turns to a bigger entity: a city, i.e. <város> ['va:roS].

(Hence,

> e.g.
> > Józsefváros = Josefstadt, Újváros = Neustadt.)
> >
> > The idea of "burg, fortress, castrum" is also contained in the
> reflexes
> > built with the suffix -<vowel>d or -da, AFAIK used in modern

Hung.

> in
> > toponyms (either staying as such or in combination with another
> word,
> > e.g. name): <várda> ['var:dO] and <várad> ['va:rOd], which has
> been
> > "translated" into German as Wardein. (In medieval Latin

documents

> várda
> > also as Uarod.) In this list there are more of such place names:
> > http://www.radixindex.com/placeindex/placeindex_va.shtml
> >
> > [One of such Wardeins is Hung. Nagyvárad/Rum. Oradea
> > (Mare)/Grosswardein/medieval Lat. Waradinum, about 11 km East of
> the
> > Hungarian-Romanian border, on the road E15 between Budapest and
> Cluj
> > (Kolozsvár/Klausenburg), which was an important Cath. bishopric

in

> the
> > Hung. kingdom; there lived the Italian friar Rogerius who wrote
> the
> > most important account (for the region) on the Mongolian

invasion

> in
> > 1241: "Carmen miserabile".]
> >
> > Also compare with some Romanianized toponym Vãrãdia, e.g.

Vãrãdia

> de
> > Mure$, in the Arad county (i.e. the southern neighbor of the

Bihor

> > county whose capital is Oradea/(Nagy)Várad/Grosswardein).
> >
> > So: <vár, város, várad, várda>. (But caution: <vár> also means
> > "he/she/it expects/waits or is expecting or waiting (for)".)
> >
> > George
> >
> > PS: one of the Corvidae birds family is called in Hungarian
> <varjú>
> > ['vOrju:], namely "crow; cioarã; sorrë; Krähe".
> ************
> By all means, <var> and suffixed form <varosh> is a Persian loan
> (<*wer- 'close, cover, surround') from early contacts of Mongolian
> and Turkish tribes with Persian world (even today in Iran is

living

> a big number of Turkish population).
> But, this word, to my view, starts to spread during Empire of the
> Golden Horde, formed from Mongolian and Turkish tribes (from the
> middle of 13-th century to the end of 14 century), where we for

the

> first time see flourishing settlement with the appellative
> <Var•osh>, usually proceeded by adjective <yeni> 'new' (cf. Yeni
> Varosh, today Novi Varoš) or <eski> 'old'.
> In Balkan, at most in all cities, that have any castle, the suburb
> of the castle is known as <varosh>. It probably predates the
> occupation of the Balkan by Ottoman Empire.
> It is attested also in <Varsh•ac> in reduced form and I still
> believe in <Warsz•awa>, for I hardly accept to be it a honoriphic
> place name, until we haven't any historical sources that prove it.
> As a compound element it took place in many place names, like in
> Slavonia: Vuko•var, Bijelo•var, Daru•var. Also it is present in
> Tschekish place name Hosti•var and in Macedonia Gosti•var.
>

Those 'war's sure got around.
Danish placenames Varberg (now in Sweden), Vordingborg, Oringe
(< 'warth' "guard(post)").
The root also entered the western Romance languages early enough
that w- > gu-.
OTOH these strategic fortresses are connected with king Valdemar III
Atterdag, late 14th century.

Vennemann would connect *w-rt- to a Semitic root with the same
meaning.


Torsten