Hung. var-oS [Re: Rom. tsarca - Lit. s^árka]

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, g <st-george@...> wrote:

> > The members who know Hungarian would probably be better

respondents,

> > but if 'város' is not borrowed from Iranian then it is related to
> > *uras - bull/gardian of heard.
> >
> > Peter P
>
> I suppose <vár> < PIE *uer (thus being related inter alia to Ger.

Wehr.

> (My memory doesn't help me, but I must've read this somwhere some
> time.)
>
> The main & original thing is <vár>. <Város> is the suffixation of

it:

> with -<vowel>s [S], in this case -os [oS]. So the "burg, fortress"
> turns to a bigger entity: a city, i.e. <város> ['va:roS]. (Hence,

e.g.

> Józsefváros = Josefstadt, Újváros = Neustadt.)
>
> The idea of "burg, fortress, castrum" is also contained in the

reflexes

> built with the suffix -<vowel>d or -da, AFAIK used in modern Hung.

in

> toponyms (either staying as such or in combination with another

word,

> e.g. name): <várda> ['var:dO] and <várad> ['va:rOd], which has

been

> "translated" into German as Wardein. (In medieval Latin documents

várda

> also as Uarod.) In this list there are more of such place names:
> http://www.radixindex.com/placeindex/placeindex_va.shtml
>
> [One of such Wardeins is Hung. Nagyvárad/Rum. Oradea
> (Mare)/Grosswardein/medieval Lat. Waradinum, about 11 km East of

the

> Hungarian-Romanian border, on the road E15 between Budapest and

Cluj

> (Kolozsvár/Klausenburg), which was an important Cath. bishopric in

the

> Hung. kingdom; there lived the Italian friar Rogerius who wrote

the

> most important account (for the region) on the Mongolian invasion

in

> 1241: "Carmen miserabile".]
>
> Also compare with some Romanianized toponym Vãrãdia, e.g. Vãrãdia

de

> Mure$, in the Arad county (i.e. the southern neighbor of the Bihor
> county whose capital is Oradea/(Nagy)Várad/Grosswardein).
>
> So: <vár, város, várad, várda>. (But caution: <vár> also means
> "he/she/it expects/waits or is expecting or waiting (for)".)
>
> George
>
> PS: one of the Corvidae birds family is called in Hungarian

<varjú>

> ['vOrju:], namely "crow; cioarã; sorrë; Krähe".

************
By all means, <var> and suffixed form <varosh> is a Persian loan
(<*wer- 'close, cover, surround') from early contacts of Mongolian
and Turkish tribes with Persian world (even today in Iran is living
a big number of Turkish population).
But, this word, to my view, starts to spread during Empire of the
Golden Horde, formed from Mongolian and Turkish tribes (from the
middle of 13-th century to the end of 14 century), where we for the
first time see flourishing settlement with the appellative
<Var•osh>, usually proceeded by adjective <yeni> 'new' (cf. Yeni
Varosh, today Novi Varoš) or <eski> 'old'.
In Balkan, at most in all cities, that have any castle, the suburb
of the castle is known as <varosh>. It probably predates the
occupation of the Balkan by Ottoman Empire.
It is attested also in <Varsh•ac> in reduced form and I still
believe in <Warsz•awa>, for I hardly accept to be it a honoriphic
place name, until we haven't any historical sources that prove it.
As a compound element it took place in many place names, like in
Slavonia: Vuko•var, Bijelo•var, Daru•var. Also it is present in
Tschekish place name Hosti•var and in Macedonia Gosti•var.

Konushevci