Re: Rom. vatra - Alb vatër-votër - PAlb *wai-a:tra

Sorry : please read below o>a in place of a>o:
So it is:
PIE *swe-(>*swoi) 'own;self' + *HaHtr- 'fire'.
PIE *swoi-HaHtr- > (o>a) > Old PAlb *swai-*a:tra > (sw>w; HaH>a:) >
PAlb *wai-a:tra

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "alexandru_mg3" <alexandru_mg3@...>
wrote:

>
>
> Hello,
>
> I want to present my opinion related to the sematism of
> word 'vatra' in order to can identify a possible PIE root.
>
> 'vatra' mainly means 'fire place' but from here we have a lot of
> derived meanings that are not at all related to the word 'fire' ...
>
> Rom. 'vatra satului' - 'center of the village'
> Rom. 'vatra parinteasca' - 'originar place of my family or of

my

> ancestors; homeland'
>
> So 'vatra' means a kind of 'axis mundis' a place that

represents

> the 'originar place of a person'.
>
> I tell you all these not 'to say some nice words' but to can

put

> the following question:
>
> "From where all these secondary meanings could arrived?"
>
> For sure only the inner meaning of the word "fire"/"fire place"
> is not sufficient to can generate all the derived meanings above.
>
> In other words : we don't have in 'vatra' -> 'any kind of fire
> or fire place' but a 'particular fire' a 'very special one':
>
> "the Fire of My House",
>
> "my Own Fire ; my Own Fire place"
>
> "the Fire that I have to take care of because He represents me"
>
> Only based on the existance of this second particle "Own" in

the

> inner meaning of the word 'vatra' we could explain next all the
> derived secondary meanings that we have.
> So in my opinion the particle "own" belong to the 'inner
> semantism' of the word 'vatra'.
>
> Based on the observations above: if 'vatra' originary means 'my
> own Fire (place)" we would have here :
>
> PIE *swe-(>*swoi) 'own;self' + *HaHtr- 'fire'.
>
> PIE *swoi-HaHtr- > Old PAlb *swai-*a:tra > (a>o;sw>w; HaH>a:) >

PAlb

> *wai-a:tra
>
> ( *wai-a:tra is very closed to the PAlb form that I already
> identified: *wa:aitra based only on the Albanian dialectal
> variance 'va~vo')
>
>
> Notes: 1. I put H for any kind of h1,2,3 because I don't have
> knowledge on this area
> 2. From the PIE *swe- (var. *swoi-) 'self;own' we have also:
>
> PIE *swoi- > (o>a) > PAlb *(s)wai-ta- > (sw>w;ai>e;we>ve) > Alb
> vetë '(one)self'.
> With Cognates: OPruss. swais; Skt. svayám

`oneself' ;

>
>
> So from the PIE proto-form *swoi-HaHtr- "my own fire" there is no
> issue to derived next the PAlb and the Albanian dialectals forms.
>
> Geg Derivation:
> ---------------
> PAlb wai-a:tra > Palb Geg we-otra > Old Geg veotra > Geg votër
>
>
> Tosk Derivation:
> ----------------
> PAlb wai-a:tra > (dialectal lost of a length : a:>a)
> PAlb Tosk we-atra > Old Tosk vatra > Tosk vatër
>
> Romanian Derivation:
> --------------------
> PAlb *wai-a:tra > (dialectal lost of a length : a:>a)
> PAlb Rom. *we-atra > Old Rom *vatra
>
> (maybe with a dialectal variance *veatra in Daco-Romanian dialect
> where we have Rom. sg.vatrã/pl.vetre)
>
>
> So 'vatra' means in my opinion 'my own Fire; my own Fireplace"
>
> And the PAlb (Dacian?) form was : *wai-a:tra
> (or the contracted one *wa:aitra)
>
> Only the Best,
> marius