Re: [tied] Re: Albanian valle 'circular dance' - Proto-Albanian for

On 04-11-19 11:44, alexandru_mg3 wrote:

> a) see the Slavic c^ > Alb. s -> where you can propose a single
> Slavic word (a doubtful word regarding its Slavic origin)

Alb. s derives from earlier *c^ also in NATIVE words, as any historical
grammar of Albanian will tell you; cf. pesë < *pêc^ë < *penkWe-. We can
reasonably expect some of the earliest Slavic loans to have joined this
relatively recent change. The examples cannot be many for historical
reasons, but any loanword with *c^ simply takes a free ride -- the
change has been independently established for inherited Albanian words;
I didn't make it up.

> b) see also Latin a: > Alb. o -> where you can propose a single
> word too (that could be very well also a Greek loan in Albanian).

Just as above: *a: > o is a NATIVE change and any loanword taken at a
sufficiently early date will undergo it together with the native lexical
stock. I don't invent any special changes to push my point through.

> So please don't tell me that 'huo'>'uo' is 'ad-hoc' and that I
> work with singularities.
> At least I put you a second example here of a "prothetic h" in
> Romanian.
>
> ( I also hoped that 'hou' < 'uo' being obvious (we have here
> this 'uo' twice) not to be raised by you as an impossibility. But I'm
> wrong ...)

It's nice to see you admit it ;-)

> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> This is directly contradicted by <vatrã>, where Alb. va-/vo- is
> retained.
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> There is no contraction regarding 'vatra'. The contradiction is in
> your model that supposed that 'wa' -> 'o' and 'wa' -> 'va' happened
> on 'the same moment of time'.
>
> Of course that in this case a contradiction will be obtain.
>
> Is what I said in my previous message that based on this rule:
> PAlb 'wa' > Rom. 'o' your Albanian timeframes (and Proto Romanian too)
> will become false.
>
> And I will come here with more examples regarding the PAlb
> *w ,*v , Latin *v, and Proto-Romanian *w , *v.
>
> Another issue with 'vatra' is: if "v" in vatra "is prothetic", the
> situation is even more complicated in order to give this word as
> example here.
>
> So you need to review your model by including more facts.

Thank you, but I try to respect the facts out of my own accord.

> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> Whose "reconstruction" is this? *-rw- would have given Romanian <-rb-
>
>>,
>>as in corb < corvu- /korwu-/. Please stop multiplying absurdities.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> It's a wrong context in your example:
>
> a) We don't have rw(u) in hora but a more complicated phonetic
> context (more vowels) : 'rwo-a'/'rwã-a'/'row-a' (for a similar
> vocalism see Rom. 'roua' : Romanian '(r)oua' is the most closer
> example that I can show you regarding this 'uoa'/'oua'/'uãa' in hora.)

Sorry, but the "complications" are all a figment of your imagination. It
seems there are no lengths to which you could go to make the derivation
appear to work. Ockham's Razor applies here.

> b) Secondly 'corb' is not considered by some linguists (like
> Academia Romana) as an inherited Latin word in Romanian.
> See DEX (http://dexonline.ro/search.php?cuv=corb&source=)

You do well to respect DEX; it's a pity you don't accept the etymology
of <horã> given there.

> made by Academia Romana that clearly indicates:
>
> "din Lat. corvus" and not "Lat. corvus"
>
> This 'din Lat.' is the DEX indication that is not a Latin
> inherited word BUT was loaned via other sources or is a later Latin
> loan (for an inherited Latin word in DEX see : "ÁRMĂ [...] Lat. arma"

This is getting ridiculous. Since when does "from Latin" (<din Lat.>)
means that the word cannot be in from Latin (whether borrowed or
inherited, as in this case)? Where does the dictionary mention such a
convention? But if you have any doubts, take any other word of similar
form, such as cerb < cervus. Here DEX says simply "Lat." BTW, if the
'raven' word were a later loan from Romance or book Latin, not
inherited, it would have yielded Rom. <corv> (like <nerv>). <-rb-> gives
away its status as an old word.

> -------------------------------------------------------------
>
>>Ever heard about Wanderwörter?
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Is not the "Wanderwörter" idea that I qualified "contorted"
> regarding 'hora' (this could be another topic we didn't even open it)
> but the "chronology of loans in Balkans" regarding this word.
> So the "the chronology" is the issue...based on the knowing facts.

I rest my case.

Piotr