[tied] Re: Albanian valle 'circular dance'

Hello Piotr,

Your explanations explain 'a lot of things' but avoid completly the
issues raised by your logic that I presented before: this issue is
related to the chronology of loans among Alb,Rom.Bulg. and Greek.

But if you think that you can skip the issues raised by your
supposed chronology in your logic and you can say 'Why not?' without
any doubt....is your choice to can ignore this...

Only to add here that 'hora' is not a 'circular dance like any
circular dance in Greece or Israel' but is a very specific dance
played in Balkans: same dance in Romania , Bulgaria and Albania.

Around this dance a lot of books were written only to describe it.
Similar volume of work as regarding other word: Rom. 'doina'
Lith 'daina' - and if there is somebody from Lithuania on this forum
he will easy understand what I wanted to point out showing this
analogy.

But now I will come back only to my derivation that you put in
cause.

------------------------------------------------------------------

> (Sigh.) But is it the same word? You haven't even provided any

other

> examples of Romanian <h-> reflecting *w, so what are we talking

about?

> The equation is totally ad hoc.

------------------------------------------------------------------
Is not Romanian h for w.

The h is only prothetic here and not from w: *huo-ra < *uo-ra.

I hope that you will not tell me that uo>huo like in uooooo!!!!
huooooo!!! is not possible and is a major issue. So a prothetic h
before a 'uo' is very probable to appear.

Next the explanation of h- here is sustained by the fact that the
reconstructed Romanian form shows that the sounds 'uo' appeared twice
in the word at one moment of time: *uoruo > *huoruo and that this
*uoruo was difficult to be pronounced in Romanian without an initial
h-.

The linguistic books proposed also protethic sounds (like h
etc...) (with good reasons sometimes - like in this case: the
existance of a pair word in another language with an identical
meaning matching the other phonetic rules (see: 'valle'))

The main rules are the following:

a) For Romanian: we have PAlb wa > Rom. uã > uo (attested for Rom.
word 'o') > o
(see Rosetti derivation of unã < *uã < uo < o)

b) For Albanian: we have PAlb wa > Alb. va

These are the rules that I proposed for PAlb *wa .

So from 'hora'/'valle' we have :

From PIE wel-7 > PAlb. *walwo:- -> Alb. valle
(Albanian Rules: o: > e; lw>ll ; wa>va)

From PIE wel-7 > PAlb. *walwo:- ->
Old. Rom. uãruo > *uoruo > huoruo > huorua > hora

(Romanian Rules: *wa > *uã < uo < o (see Rosetti's derivation);
rothacism ;
prothetic h: uo > huo;
adaptation of fem. ending)

The etymology above is not a "contorted" etymology (even I'm not 100%
sure for its final part: maybe was only *wala or *walo: or even
*walwona etc..)...

and even you don't like the idea of a Subtratum in Romanian:
because the rule above (PAlb wa > Rom. o) will put in cause your
proposed timeframes for Albanian language.

I will come back with other examples that reflects the rule:
PAlb wa > Alb va <-> Rom o

On the other hand talking about "contorsions" here, your logic
regarding the "loan path" among Greek, Albanian, Bulgarian and
Romanian regarding the same (very specific) dance is a
very "contorted one".

(see my previous message:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/35134
that presents this "contorsion" )

Only the Best,
marius

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@...>
wrote:

> On 04-11-17 15:00, alexandru_mg3 wrote:
>
> > As pre-requisite I want only to add that Albanian "valle"
> > Romanian "hora" and Bulgarian "horo" is the same dance. Same
> > movements , same rythm, same formation: really the same dance.
> > Do you know this? I suppose yes.
>
> (Sigh.) But is it the same word? You haven't even provided any

other

> examples of Romanian <h-> reflecting *w, so what are we talking

about?

> The equation is totally ad hoc.
>
> > Next your scenario is the following:
> > Albanians plays this dance for pre-historic times naming

it "valle"

> > maybe PAlb *walwo:- from PIE *wel-7....
>
> Your faith in the depth of this tradition is touching, but can you

> any way substantiate your claim that the very same dance has been

danced

> since prehistoric times AND that its name can't have changed, so it

MUST

> be as ancient as the hills?
>
> > But Bulgarians learn the same dance from Greeks (by the way

the

> > Greek word that you proposed is not at all the name of this

dance...)

> > or
> > Bulgarians having their own dance (by a strange coincidence

the

> > same dance as Albanian 'valle') named this dance by loaning a

Greek

> > word to named it...
> > or
> > Bulgarians learning the dance from Albanians not used the

Albanian

> > name for it, but used a loaned Greek word for dance,music,etc..

> > name this dance.
>
> Gk. kHoros meant 'dance' especially as a public or religious

ceremony,

> and typically as a form of ring dance; it could also mean 'a band

> dancers and singers, a choir', or a circular ground where dances

could

> be held (even the agora, as in Sparta). The verb <kHoreuo:> could

refer

> to ring-dancing or to any circling movement, such as the motions of
> celestial bodies. No semantic problem here.
>
> > On their turn the Romanians that shared in common hundred of

words

> > with Albanians, and live together from (at least) before

Decebal's

> > time (before 100AC) didn't know anything about the Albanians

dances,

> > and especially regarding 'valle' dance, because they cannot or

didn't

> > want to learn nothing about this one.
> >
> > In contrary, Romanian are waiting for about 600-700 or 800
> > hundred years...in order to can learn this dance and/or

especially

> > the name of this dance.
> >
> > a) first The Romanians are waiting for Bulgarians to arrive in
> > Balkans (for about 500-600 years) in order to learn the dance
> > played 'each day' by Albanians that are near them in all this
> > period...
> >
> > b) next the Romanians are waiting for Bulgarians to learn this
> > dance from Greeks or to learn the dance from Albanians and next

> > loaned a Greek word in order to name it.
> >
> > c) Finally at the end the Romanians decided or arrived to learn
> > this dance from Bulgarians after about for 700-800 years, when

during

> > all this period they saw 'each day' this dance played by

Albanians

> > that lived near them.
>
> Why not? We have the same name for the round dance in Turkish and

Modern

> Hebrew (!) as a result of a recent chain of borrowing.
>
> > If this is the logic that you, Piotr and Abdullah, are trying

> > sustain here, I'm sorry for it.
> >
> > Now the logic that I proposed is the following :
> >
> > I will resume my logic below:
> > -------------------------------
> > As pre-requisite I want only to add that Albanian "valle"
> > Romanian "hora" and Bulgarian "horo" is the same dance. Same
> > movements , same rythm, same formation.
> >
> > Next my scenario is the following:
> > Albanians plays this dance for pre-historic times naming
> > it "valle" maybe PAlb *walwo:- from PIE *wel-7....
> >
> > Romanian that share the same substratum with Albanians or

have a

> > very close one, learned this dance at least in the times when the
> > name of the dance was *walwo:- (or someting similar) so in Proto-
> > Albanian (Dacian?) times...
> >
> > When Bulgarians arrived in Balkans they learned this dance

from

> > Romanians and of course also the word (at that time the word

sound

> > very close to something like *horua / *horoa), maybe because the
> > Romanians where much closer to Bulgarians than the Albanians were

> > that time.
> >
> > (I want to add that there is no issue to derive Romanian hora
> > from PAlb *walwo:- PIE *wel-7 )
>
> If you mean that the derivation is unproblematic, then of course I
> disagree. See above on the initial .
>
> > So Piotr, is possible to qualify my logic above like:
> > "It fully qualifies as flogging a dead horse."
> >
> > and to consider your and Abdullah logic as the solution for

this

> > topic ?
> >
> > What should be the straightforward logic to follow here:

mine or

> > your?
> >
> > I'm sorry to say but your logic is not very logic here...
>
> My logic is this: when the choice is between an etymology that

presents

> no formal or semantic problems and a contorted one that gives rise

> more problems than it purports to solve (even if it appeals to
> somebody's sentiments), I choose the former. The word <horã> has

been

> discussed before in the context of one of Alex's old postings.

That's

> why this pseudo-problem qualifies as a dead horse.
>
> Piotr

[tied] Re: Albanian valle 'circular dance' - Proto-Albanian form?