Re: Alternance a-u in Romanian, Albanian and maybe in Lithuanian too

Sorry please read: tpini < *ptini- < *pVtini-

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "alexandru_mg3" <alexandru_mg3@...>
wrote:

>
> "Alb. <tinar> is a derivative of Alb. <tpini> `havy stick used to
> make milk products, like yoghurt, cheese, mixing the milk in round
> wooden vessel, known as <buçka>'. I believe that <tpini> is a
> prefixed form (cf. Latin <filum> and Alb. <tfilloj> `to develop, to
> instruct') of suffixed zero-grade form *pi-nu (cf. Latin
> <pinus> `pine tree'). So, <tinar> is just e derivative of <tpin + -
> ar>, loosing /p/ due to further suffixation."
>
> But it could be very well invers : that 'tpini' with some older

forms

> like *tpini > *ptini- > *pVtini- to be derived from *putina <

*puteina

>
> Only the Best,
> marius
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Abdullah Konushevci"
> <a_konushevci@...> wrote:
> >
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "alexandru_mg3"
> > <alexandru_mg3@...> wrote:
> >
> > II. Rom. burta 'belly' - Alb. bark 'id'
> > -> from PAlb *baruk ; *baruk-ta for Rom. form
> > or maybe from PAlb *bwaruk ; *bwaruk-ta for Rom. form
> >
> > from PIE bher-1 'to carry' (see also Old Indian bhárati
> > `carries')
> >
> > maybe also: the attested N-W Dacian toponym: Burticum (in today
> > Transylvania)
> >
> > -------------------------------
> > So Rom. -uru- <-> Alb. -aru-
> > -------------------------------
> > [AK]
> > Also to V. Orel PAlb *baruka identical with Greek Bar(u)ka

aidoion

> > para Tarantininos (Durante Ric. Ling. III 158; Krahe Spr. Illyr.

4)

> > and, further, continuing *bhor-uko, a derivative of IE *bher- `to
> > carry' (Meyer Wb 27). The loss of the inlaut –u- points to the
> > stress on the first syllable in PAlb *bháruka, cf. barukë <

*barúka

> > (AED, p.18).
> > After that he prays Camarda's comparation with <barrë>.
> > Once, as you probably remember, I have point out that Alb.
> > <bark> `belly, abdomen' can't be separated from <barrë> `burden'
> and
> > there are all chances that it can't be separated from the similar
> > constructions as <derr> `pig, swine' and <derk> `suckling pig',
> > <berr> `lamb' and <berk> `little lamb, phloem' etc.
> > If we take a look in Alb. word <mbarre/marre> `shame, dishonor',
> > with primary meaning "to overload someone as much as one can't
> > stand, to make stupid, brutish' (see Latin <brutus> `stupid,
> > brutish, dull'), I am afraid that we must seek its etymology in
> > other direction. Much easier seems PIE root *gWherH- `havy' and
> Alb.
> > <barrë> `burden, pregnancy' as derived from suffixed zero-grade
> form
> > *gWr.H-na: < gWr.H-neH2 (see Latin <gravis> `heavy'), so
> > <bark> `belly' to be an dimunitive form of <barrë>, as are <derk>
> of
> > <derr>, <berk> of <berr>.
> >
> >
> > II. Rom. buruiana 'weed;herb' - Alb. barurina 'id. but pl.'
> > (derived from Alb. bar 'grass')
> >
> > <- from PAlb *baru- or *bwaru-
> >
> > (Maybe also today Romanian toponym 'Buru' in Apuseni Mountains)
> >
> > Note: Viewing the above forms results that the South Slavic
> > form: Bg. Scr. 'burjan' is a loan from Romanian (and not inverse

as

> > it is considered today)
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > So once again Rom. -uru- <-> Alb. -aru- (as in bark/burta)
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > [AK]
> > Alb. <bar> has also the meaning "medicine, drug" (<bar
> > çudibërës `elixir', bar gjumi `soporiphic', bar harrese

`nepenthe'

> > etc.) and, even there is no etymology, as far as I know, for

Greek

> > <pharmakon>, I am afraid that they make a good cognate.
> >
> >
> > III. N-W Dacian river Maris- today Rom. Muresh
> > (river name in Transylvania)
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> > So Rom. -ure- <-> N-W Dacian -ari-
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Note : More probable the Dacian form was in fact: *Mwarisia
> >
> >
> > V. Rom. aluniTa - Alb. lajthi 'small hazel nut'/'hazel nut'
> > <- PAlb. *alanjtsja or *alwanjtsja
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> > So Rom. -alu- <-> Alb. -ala-
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > [AK]
> > I support completely Piotr's etymology, especially when we find
> > other cognates, like: Old Prussian <lagzde>, Lituanian <lagzda>,
> and
> > Latvian <lazda>.
> >
> > VI. Rom. sudui 'to insult' - Alb. shaj 'id'
> > <- from PAlb. *sadunja or *swadunja
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> > So Rom. udu - Alb. -*adu-
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > [AK]
> > As I have claimed also in Balkanika, Alb. <shaj> is

straightforward

> > form *sal-yo of PIE *sel- and Romanian of Slavic <suditi> `to
> judge,
> > accuse, insult'.
> >
> > VII. Rom. putina 'barrel' - Alb. tinar 'id.'
> > from PAlb *patinara
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> > So Rom. -uti- - Alb. -*ati-
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > [AK]
> > Alb. <tinar> is a derivative of Alb. <tpini> `havy stick used to
> > make milk products, like yoghurt, cheese, mixing the milk in

round

> > wooden vessel, known as <buçka>'. I believe that <tpini> is a
> > prefixed form (cf. Latin <filum> and Alb. <tfilloj> `to develop,

to

> > instruct') of suffixed zero-grade form *pi-nu (cf. Latin
> > <pinus> `pine tree'). So, <tinar> is just e derivative of <tpin

+ -

> > ar>, loosing /p/ due to further suffixation.
> >
> > I like to write also about Alb. <lyth> `wart', for I see it as
> > derivative of PIE root *leuk- `light, brightness' suffixed in –st
>
> > *luk-st-o > lukth > lujth > lyth (cf. Lat. fructus > frujt > fryt
> or
> > Lat. directus > drejt, pactare > pajtoj as well as <lajthi> etc.)
> >
> > NOTE: the initial pa- is lost in Albanian.
> > For the lost of initial *pa- see also Dacian :
> > attested Patissus/Partiscum and today Rom. Tisa (river in
> > Pannonia and North Transylvania)
> >
> > The Dacian form was in fact:
> > *Patitsja /paticja/ that gives without problems today Rom.
> > Tisa from a previous form Titsja (after the lost of initial Pa-).
> > We have here PAlb(Dacian) transformations: cja > sa; pa- > -)
> >
> > *Patitsja > Tisa and *Mwarisia > Muresh clearly indicates the
> > continuity of semi-romanized Dacians in N-W Romania (today
> > Transylvania)
> >
> > I think that the examples above are enough to demonstrate the
> > existance of the alternance a-u between Romanian and Albanian
> >
> > In order to explain this a-u alternance I have 2 hypothesis:
> >
> > a) A PAlb diphtong *-wa- / *-ua- (maybe older than PAlb if their
> > is an u shift in Lithuanian too?) that gives inside a word -u- in
> > Romanian (or in a PAlb Northern Dialect?) and -a- in Albanian (or

in

> > a PAlb Southern Dialect?)
> >
> > b) or we only have some assimilitation/ dissimilation processes.
> >
> >
> > I'm more incline for the PAlb *wa hypothesis.
> >
> >
> > Only the Best,
> > Marius
> >
> > Konushevci