From: tgpedersen
Message: 34629
Date: 2004-10-13
>rivers
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hans Kuhn identifies a layer of non-IE river etc names he
> > calls "the other Old Europe", concentrated in his Nordwestblock,
> but
> > with a thin line along the coast north to Scandinavia. One of th
> > characteristic suffixes is -andr-. He shows that 60% of the
> > with -andr- have matching first elements among Krahe's supposedlyProto-
> IE
> > Old Europe river names in -nt-/-nd-.
> >
> > Since Basque has both 'andere' "lady"
> and 'andje'(Löpelmann) "young
> > lady" I thought I might try to match the first elements with
> > Vasconic, as Miguel reconstructs it. Since it is possible thatthe
> > river names have participated in the developments of Proto-Proto-
> Vasconic
> > to Pre-Basque, I've sometimes matched with later stages than
> > Vasconic. As for semantics, Basque has a habit of using wordsI've
> > like 'lady' for sea creatures, so why not imagine rivers names
> from
> > an eponymous mermaid? Anyway, here goes:
> >
> >
> > *Harendre. unkn. prob. near Brussels
> >
> > Basque harr "stone, rock" <-
> > *kar- "stone" (known from other toponyms too)
> >
> >
> > Kaldern (at Marburg)
> > Callendorn (Overijsel)/Collendoorn)
> > Hellendoorn
> > Collandre (dep. Eure)
> >
> > German Halde "slope"
> > Basque alda "slope, side of a mountain"
> > Basque althe "front or back side (textile), neighborhood"
> > Basque (h)alde "side, area"
> >
> > Note that the Nordwestblock k/h alternation follows the
> hypothetical
> > Pro-Vasconic development k > h > Ø, cf
> > Placenames:
> > Kersne (Zerssen at Rinteln) vs Heerse
> > Künsebach (W of Bielefeld) vs Hunse
> > Keflike (at Brilon) vs Heflike
> >
> > According to Kuhn, Kald-/Hald-(Iald- is an important name element
> in
> > the area of the Ubii:
> > Personal names
> > Caldinius (4 times)
> > Caldivius
> > Haldania
> > Haldavva
> > Haldavvonius
> > Challinius
> > Ialdania
> > Placename:
> > *Caldiniacum -> Keldenich
> >
> >
> > Sumandria > Semandre (ENE of Cambrai)
> >
> > Basque sun "deep" (whick Löpelmann derives from s^okon ??)
> > Basque sume "beam" (timber)
> >
> >
> > Malandry (S of Carignan on the Maas)
> >
> > Basque mala "fortgeschwemmte Erde, Schlamm", ie "river deposit,
> mud"
> >
> >
> > Vardes (at Neufmarché on the Epte, Seine inf.) < Warandr-
> >
> > Basque bara "Haltepunkt, Längsholz einer Schranke, Holzknüttel,
> den
> > mam dem Vieh als Hindernis umhängt", in other a bar, barrier or
> > impediment
> > Basque bara-dera "fish weir"
> > Nordwestblock 'bar' and 'park', 'paddock' (r > d). Note the
> > characteristic Nordwestblock -k- suffix on the latter.
> >
> >
> > Nassandre (dep. Eure)
> >
> > Basque nasa "wide, broad"
> >
> >
> > Visandre (Seine et Marne)
> >
> > Basque beltz "black" -> *bes- ?
> >
> > I'm not happy with this one.
> >
> >
> > *Savandr-/*Savindr- -> Zevender
> >
> > Basque zabal "wide, broad, open, long"
> >
> > but what happened to -al?
> >
> >
> > *Arandr-/*Arindr- > Erintra -> Ehrental (on the Rhine)
> >
> > Basque (h)are "sand", supposedly (Löpelmann) from Latin
> arena "sand",
> > but that has /a/ and may itself be a loanword, most likely from a
> > coast language; in general I'm impressed with the tendency of
> Basque
> > to loan Latin words in /a/, which makes one wonder about the
> > direction of the loan.
> >
> >
> > *Is-andra -> IJzendoorn (Gelderland)
> >
> > Basque *is- "water"
> > This much disputed reconstructed glosss is accepted by Vennemann,
> but
> > rejected by others.
> >
> >
> > Sal-indr- -> Salindre
> >
> > Basque sari "lime tree"
> > Basque sarika "willow"
> > The latter is supposedly borrowed from Latin salic- "willow", but
> > that Latin gloss has /a/ and is matched with Swedish
> sälg "willow",
> > which therefore ... see previous entry
> >
> > Tar-andr-
> > I've given up finding a match for this one.
> >
> >
> > I suppose I'll have to leave it to others to judge whether these
> > naming elements are river'like enough. Subjectively speaking,
> > found them easy to find.suffixed
> >
> >
> > Torsten
> ************
> Dear Torsten,
> In all these hydronyms I see only a nasalized suffixed form of PIE
> root *wed-, indeed its o-grade form *wod-ra (cf. zero-grade
> form *ud-or, *ud-ra 'water animal', Eng. otter, Gree Hydra 'waterI think it is Pliny who mentions a tribe named Texuandri, which in
> serpent, nutria from Lat. lutria with obscuere /l-/ etc.) with
> regular lost of /w/ (cf. *wl.kW-o > PAlb ulk, /*l./ > Palb /ul/),
> attested also in Mare Adriaticus in non-nasalized form, through *o
>
> a, Illyrian tribe name Ardiei < Adriei.