Re: -andr-, -nd-

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "tgpedersen" <tgpedersen@...>
wrote:

>
>
> Hans Kuhn identifies a layer of non-IE river etc names he
> calls "the other Old Europe", concentrated in his Nordwestblock,

but

> with a thin line along the coast north to Scandinavia. One of th
> characteristic suffixes is -andr-. He shows that 60% of the rivers
> with -andr- have matching first elements among Krahe's supposedly

IE

> Old Europe river names in -nt-/-nd-.
>
> Since Basque has both 'andere' "lady"

and 'andje'(Löpelmann) "young

> lady" I thought I might try to match the first elements with Proto-
> Vasconic, as Miguel reconstructs it. Since it is possible that the
> river names have participated in the developments of Proto-

Vasconic

> to Pre-Basque, I've sometimes matched with later stages than Proto-
> Vasconic. As for semantics, Basque has a habit of using words
> like 'lady' for sea creatures, so why not imagine rivers names

from

> an eponymous mermaid? Anyway, here goes:
>
>
> *Harendre. unkn. prob. near Brussels
>
> Basque harr "stone, rock" <-
> *kar- "stone" (known from other toponyms too)
>
>
> Kaldern (at Marburg)
> Callendorn (Overijsel)/Collendoorn)
> Hellendoorn
> Collandre (dep. Eure)
>
> German Halde "slope"
> Basque alda "slope, side of a mountain"
> Basque althe "front or back side (textile), neighborhood"
> Basque (h)alde "side, area"
>
> Note that the Nordwestblock k/h alternation follows the

hypothetical

> Pro-Vasconic development k > h > Ø, cf
> Placenames:
> Kersne (Zerssen at Rinteln) vs Heerse
> Künsebach (W of Bielefeld) vs Hunse
> Keflike (at Brilon) vs Heflike
>
> According to Kuhn, Kald-/Hald-(Iald- is an important name element

in

> the area of the Ubii:
> Personal names
> Caldinius (4 times)
> Caldivius
> Haldania
> Haldavva
> Haldavvonius
> Challinius
> Ialdania
> Placename:
> *Caldiniacum -> Keldenich
>
>
> Sumandria > Semandre (ENE of Cambrai)
>
> Basque sun "deep" (whick Löpelmann derives from s^okon ??)
> Basque sume "beam" (timber)
>
>
> Malandry (S of Carignan on the Maas)
>
> Basque mala "fortgeschwemmte Erde, Schlamm", ie "river deposit,

mud"

>
>
> Vardes (at Neufmarché on the Epte, Seine inf.) < Warandr-
>
> Basque bara "Haltepunkt, Längsholz einer Schranke, Holzknüttel,

den

> mam dem Vieh als Hindernis umhängt", in other a bar, barrier or
> impediment
> Basque bara-dera "fish weir"
> Nordwestblock 'bar' and 'park', 'paddock' (r > d). Note the
> characteristic Nordwestblock -k- suffix on the latter.
>
>
> Nassandre (dep. Eure)
>
> Basque nasa "wide, broad"
>
>
> Visandre (Seine et Marne)
>
> Basque beltz "black" -> *bes- ?
>
> I'm not happy with this one.
>
>
> *Savandr-/*Savindr- -> Zevender
>
> Basque zabal "wide, broad, open, long"
>
> but what happened to -al?
>
>
> *Arandr-/*Arindr- > Erintra -> Ehrental (on the Rhine)
>
> Basque (h)are "sand", supposedly (Löpelmann) from Latin

arena "sand",

> but that has /a/ and may itself be a loanword, most likely from a
> coast language; in general I'm impressed with the tendency of

Basque

> to loan Latin words in /a/, which makes one wonder about the
> direction of the loan.
>
>
> *Is-andra -> IJzendoorn (Gelderland)
>
> Basque *is- "water"
> This much disputed reconstructed glosss is accepted by Vennemann,

but

> rejected by others.
>
>
> Sal-indr- -> Salindre
>
> Basque sari "lime tree"
> Basque sarika "willow"
> The latter is supposedly borrowed from Latin salic- "willow", but
> that Latin gloss has /a/ and is matched with Swedish

sälg "willow",

> which therefore ... see previous entry
>
> Tar-andr-
> I've given up finding a match for this one.
>
>
> I suppose I'll have to leave it to others to judge whether these
> naming elements are river'like enough. Subjectively speaking, I've
> found them easy to find.
>
>
> Torsten

************
Dear Torsten,
In all these hydronyms I see only a nasalized suffixed form of PIE
root *wed-, indeed its o-grade form *wod-ra (cf. zero-grade suffixed
form *ud-or, *ud-ra 'water animal', Eng. otter, Gree Hydra 'water
serpent, nutria from Lat. lutria with obscuere /l-/ etc.) with
regular lost of /w/ (cf. *wl.kW-o > PAlb ulk, /*l./ > Palb /ul/),
attested also in Mare Adriaticus in non-nasalized form, through *o >
a, Illyrian tribe name Ardiei < Adriei.
About second example, Tara-andr- I think that it is attested in well-
known Canyon name Tara in Montenegro and usually is linked with
Illyrian tribe name Au•tari•at•es, inhabitants of Tara, which is
connected with Alb. adjective <i tharë/i thamë> 'dryed'.
But, as far as I know, the language of Nordwestblock, according to
Kuhn, is related to not Illyrian, but Venetian.

Konushevci