--- In
cybalist@yahoogroups.com, enlil@... wrote:
> Loreto:
>
> This is, as said before, Sinitic in origin but involves world-play
> rather than mathematics. I've considered wordplay but I can't see
> how it accounts for the astonishingly widespread adoption of the
term
> unless there is something more 'awesome' or 'divine' about it.
>
You mean it (four) was associated with 'death' because they sound
the same anyway. If you're right then it could be before the split
of the Japanese forms with the Chinese. But your doubt could be
answered by the seeming importance of four in other languages other
than Sinitics.
In the Bible you have the four Horsemen. There are actually four
archangels which sided with God in his battle with the Watchers who
cohabited with women. On the other hand there are seven angels which
proclaimed world's destruction.
The contrast between east and west rendition of the number four is
that the east took it as a symbol of death while the west took four
as a symbol of salvation.
>
> > And to conclude four and seven did not come from Astronomy nor in
> > calendars. But more probably from religion, [...]
>
> But religion is often based on astronomy... which fuels the
invention
> of calendars! How can you possibly seperate religion from
astronomy?
> Examine these cultures you speak of again and you'll sing a
different
> tune soon enough.
> = gLeN
Calendars were from Astronomy and so were horoscopes. Many religions
may have not flourished without Astronomy. But more often than not,
those extremely religious were the ones who became the enemies of so-
called "scientists", "magicians", "astronomers", "astrologers" etc.
etc. Hebraic/Judaic celebrations were based on calendars which were
based on Astronomy. (Enoch was said to be taught by the angels on
the laws of the Luminaries while Abraham was said to be a Magician).
But it was also within their 'religious' group which censored the
further advance of the study of the stars. That is why the Book of
Enoch, Jubilees and others were banned both by many Jewish-christian
sectors. And the reasons why there was so much suffering during and
just after the Middle Ages (Inquisition) and why we have very little
religious diversity in Islamic Middle East these days.
Although astronomy is important (at any rate) once a religion was
established they may have the option to do away with it.
And it is highly possible that a person start his "worship" without
consciously looking at the heavens or the bodies they contain.
He/she can worship the trees, the mounds of his ancestors, the
boy/girl next door, the dog, the cat, Stalin and the likes, the
volcano, a phallic symbol, a bird, a snake etc.
What we argue about originally was the origin of the holiness or
becoming taboo words of four and seven. I think more that they does
not at all derived from Astronomy although I said initially that the
four could be from the the seeming correspondence of the
ressurection of the Moon.
As I said and as you implied that it all started with the most
primitive hunter-gatherer tribes. And you said that they have kind
of calculated them (4x7) through accumulations of the various
motional patterns of the Moon and the seasons (as well as the planet
Venus). But I think that was a bit more complicated since I see that
first the hunters would not be so conscious of the seasons or the
appearance of the moon for their survival. Maybe later when their
organization became complex and they meet tremendous competitions
from somewhere they would have to make use of complicated calendraic
systems.
But first and foremost they would look for directions. And so the
most basic things were the attested dualities which existed that
they can observe. And then they would be noticing their left and
their right (or their front and their back) as well as their present
position and so the Trinity. And there may have been infinite number
of trinities as well as dualities that are to be found.
And then aside from the skyworld, earth and underworld perhaps there
is more and so the number four could be Paradise/Olympus, a holy
place.
It seems really that the number three begat the holy four and seven.
the equations then are 4= 3+1 and 7=3(2)+1 and not because 7x4 = 28
(your approximate days in one moon cycle). (See that mine is
simpler). In line with what I said initially that seven is
after 'three of three' while four is after 'three' (of course).
But why do I still connect it with the New Moon?
The answer is now contained in your argument that there would come
a time that complicated astronomy would develop for practical as
well as religious purposes. And the hunter-farmers who have the idea
of Trinity would then see its applicablity in the Immortality of the
Moon while the number seven on the Pleiades. With this you would
note that even in primitive times, our ancestors are curious about
the coincidences which they find in their lives. Hence the seven
daughters of Atlas were equated to the seven gates of Hesperides
(otherwise known as Paradise/Heaven/Eden). Hence the seven angels
(who guarded those seven gates), the seven sages, the seven
mountains which judges us. From the original three. Minos,
Rhadamantos, Sarpedon. Or Gaspar, Melchor, Belzhazaar?
Loreto