Re: [tied] Re: Why borrow 'seven'? (was: IE right & 10)

> >exuyangi@...
> >http://kickme.to/exuyangi
> >http://exuyangi.home.attbi.com/
> >ICQ: 76799701:
> > >>From: "petusek" <petusek@...>
> > >>
> > >>From: "alex" <alxmoeller@...>
> > >>To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
> > >>Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 7:13 PM
> > >>Subject: Re: [tied] Re: Why borrow 'seven'? (was: IE >right & 10)
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> > Exu Yangi wrote:
> > >> > > As for being a taboo word, and hence borrowed >from elsewhere ---
> > >> > > usually taboo words find their replacements from >within the

native

> > >> > > stock. Withness Japanese shi (death;four) being >replaced from
> >another
> > >> > > counting heirarchy.
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > I never studied sinology but I have a colleague >which is chinesse
> >and
> > >>she
> > >> > told me in chinesse the word for "death" is the same >as the word

for

> > >>>"four"
> > >> > and that word is "s1". Appropiate phonetic to >Japanese "shi" and

has

> >the
> > >> > same meaning.Is this a loan from Chiness in >Japanesse or both
> >developed
> > >>from
> > >> > the same root?
> > >>
> > >>Well, I am no sinologist (nor a japanologist), either, but >I think
> >that:
> > >>
> > >>1. Japanese is an Altaic language (belonging to the >"wider" Altaic
> > >>(super-)stock, whereas Turk., Mong. & Tung. form >the "core-Altaic"),
> >and
> > >>Altaic languages are thought to belong to the Nostratic >macrophylum.
> > >>
> > >>2. Chinese belongs to the Sino-Tibetan family, which >is considered

a

> > >>member of the Sino-Caucasic or Dene-Caucasic >macrophylum.
> > >>
> > >>3. We would have to compare the proto-language >forms to learn what
> >the
> > >>Proto-Japanese (Altaic, Nostratic) & Proto-Sinetic
>(Proto-Sino-Tibetan,
> > >>Dene-Caucasian) reconstructions might have looked like. By the way,

what

> > >>was
> > >>the Old Japanese form of "shi", what was the Old Chinese form???
> > >>
> > >>4. Yes, the words could be both from a single "root", but, perhaps,
> > >>rather than any common "heritage", one of them was a loan. As far as I
> >can
> > >>remember (but I may be wrong (but I have read things like that so many
> > >>times
> > >>(as far as I can remember, I should write, again :)))), there was a

time

> > >>when Chinese had a certain influence on the Japanese culture and
> >language
> > >>(e.g. Kanji and so on, 'right?), therefore it is quite probable that

the

> > >>way
> > >>of borrowing was Chinese > Japanese, and not vice versa.
> > >>
> > >>I hope I have answered your question a little. If the word means "4" &
> > >>"death" in both languages, the word being a loan is, in my view, the
> >only
> > >>posssibilitiiieeeyeah...
> > >>
> > >>Petusek
> > >>
> > >It is probably a loan from Chinese.
> > >
> > >one = Chinese erh = Japanese i(chi)
> > >two = chinese ni = japanese ni
> > >three = chinese sam = japanese san
> > >four = chinese shi = japanese shi
> > >five = chinese go = japanese go
> > >
> > >There are a HUGE number of chinese borrowing in Japanese (a bit like

the

> > >situation with english and french).
> >
> >Yes, exactly.
> >
> > > It would not a stretch to find both
> > >"four" and "death" are borrowed from the Chinese.
> >
> >Do you know or have you read when this huge borrowing took place?
>
> From what I understand, there were two main times (both fairly well
> documented) corresponding to two Bhuddist "incursions" trying to establish
> Bhuddism in Japan. The first was during the 800-900s and the second in the
> 1200-1300s.

Yes, I have read something like that.

> In addition to Bhuddism, they brought Chinese culture and writing. though

Of course, that's it. Besides Katagana and Hiragana, Kanji is used.

> the writing, they brough the chinese language. Even today, the ideograms
> often have a "chinese" and a "japanese" reading. And sometimes more than
> one.

Exactly.

> >Thanks for the list of the first five numerals in Japanese. In Old
> >Japanese,
> >the first decade was organized in pairs:
> >
> >1 fitö 2 futa
> >3 mi 6 mu
> >4 yö 8 ya
> >5 i-tu 10 töwö
>
> I have seen that. Kind of like organizing English as
>
> one
> two three
> four five
> six seven
> eight n-ine
> ten
>
> and then saying that the first letters must make them related. Ummm ...

Oh, you're poisonous! ;-)))

If you compare fitö & futa, the common pattern is not only /f-/, but also
/fVt-/, this looks like "internal apophony", doesn't it?
Duality is a very common effect in creating numerals, as for etymologies of
various Altaic numerals, I could send you a list of references, in order to
let you decide for yourself. IE numerals of one IE branch can be compared
with numerals of another IE branch, and thus reconstructed and etymologized.
Japanese numerals have their cognates in other Altaic languages.

(I will play your game) Have you ever seen any system like

2 two T- 2
3 three T- 2+1
4 four F- 4
5 five F- 4+1
6 six S- 6
7 seven S- 6+1
8 eight Ei- 8
9 nine -Ei- 8+1

???

I have not. Typologically similar is the Nama system. In Nama (Khoi-San
macrophylum), the first 10 numerals are as follows:

1 /gui 2 /gaw
3 !nona 6 !nani (though, alternatively, in !Gora !nani-b =
"thumb")
4 haka 8 //haisa (dual -sa seems to imply "4x2")

Of course, there are several numerals (just like in Japanese) which do not
follow this pattern:

5 koro (kore.p "palm of the hand")
7 hu~ (!Gora hau~ kh'u~ "7" = "4" + ?)
9 khoese khoe "man" (=2 hands) + si (=10-1)
10 tisi (!Gora kisi "10", -si ~ dual -sa

Petusek