[tied] Re: Why borrow 'seven'? (was: IE right & 10)

From: andrew_and_inge
Message: 34161
Date: 2004-09-15

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "petusek" <petusek@...> wrote:
> From: "alex" <alxmoeller@...>
> To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 7:13 PM
> Subject: Re: [tied] Re: Why borrow 'seven'? (was: IE right & 10)
>
>
> > Exu Yangi wrote:
> > > As for being a taboo word, and hence borrowed from elsewhere --
-
> > > usually taboo words find their replacements from within the
native
> > > stock. Withness Japanese shi (death;four) being replaced from
another
> > > counting heirarchy.
> > >
> >
> >
> > I never studied sinology but I have a colleague which is
chinesse and she
> > told me in chinesse the word for "death" is the same as the word
for
> "four"
> > and that word is "s1". Appropiate phonetic to Japanese "shi" and
has the
> > same meaning.Is this a loan from Chiness in Japanesse or both
developed
> from
> > the same root?
>
> Well, I am no sinologist (nor a japanologist), either, but I think
that:
>
> 1. Japanese is an Altaic language (belonging to the "wider"
Altaic
> (super-)stock, whereas Turk., Mong. & Tung. form the "core-
Altaic"), and
> Altaic languages are thought to belong to the Nostratic
macrophylum.
>
> 2. Chinese belongs to the Sino-Tibetan family, which is
considered a
> member of the Sino-Caucasic or Dene-Caucasic macrophylum.
>
> 3. We would have to compare the proto-language forms to learn
what the
> Proto-Japanese (Altaic, Nostratic) & Proto-Sinetic (Proto-Sino-
Tibetan,
> Dene-Caucasian) reconstructions might have looked like. By the
way, what was
> the Old Japanese form of "shi", what was the Old Chinese form???
>
> 4. Yes, the words could be both from a single "root", but,
perhaps,
> rather than any common "heritage", one of them was a loan. As far
as I can
> remember (but I may be wrong (but I have read things like that so
many times
> (as far as I can remember, I should write, again :)))), there was
a time
> when Chinese had a certain influence on the Japanese culture and
language
> (e.g. Kanji and so on, 'right?), therefore it is quite probable
that the way
> of borrowing was Chinese > Japanese, and not vice versa.
>
> I hope I have answered your question a little. If the word
means "4" &
> "death" in both languages, the word being a loan is, in my view,
the only
> posssibilitiiieeeyeah...
>

Japanese does take one series of counting numbers from Chinese I
believe.

Best Regards
Andrew