[tied] Re: Why borrow 'seven'? (was: IE right & 10)

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "petusek" <petusek@...> wrote:

> From: "alex" <alxmoeller@...>
> To: <cybalist@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 7:13 PM
> Subject: Re: [tied] Re: Why borrow 'seven'? (was: IE right & 10)
>
>
> > Exu Yangi wrote:
> > > As for being a taboo word, and hence borrowed from elsewhere --

-

> > > usually taboo words find their replacements from within the

native

> > > stock. Withness Japanese shi (death;four) being replaced from

another

> > > counting heirarchy.
> > >
> >
> >
> > I never studied sinology but I have a colleague which is

chinesse and she

> > told me in chinesse the word for "death" is the same as the word

for

> "four"
> > and that word is "s1". Appropiate phonetic to Japanese "shi" and

has the

> > same meaning.Is this a loan from Chiness in Japanesse or both

developed

> from
> > the same root?
>
> Well, I am no sinologist (nor a japanologist), either, but I think

that:

>
> 1. Japanese is an Altaic language (belonging to the "wider"

Altaic

> (super-)stock, whereas Turk., Mong. & Tung. form the "core-

Altaic"), and

> Altaic languages are thought to belong to the Nostratic

macrophylum.

>
> 2. Chinese belongs to the Sino-Tibetan family, which is

considered a

> member of the Sino-Caucasic or Dene-Caucasic macrophylum.
>
> 3. We would have to compare the proto-language forms to learn

what the

> Proto-Japanese (Altaic, Nostratic) & Proto-Sinetic (Proto-Sino-

Tibetan,

> Dene-Caucasian) reconstructions might have looked like. By the

way, what was

> the Old Japanese form of "shi", what was the Old Chinese form???
>
> 4. Yes, the words could be both from a single "root", but,

perhaps,

> rather than any common "heritage", one of them was a loan. As far

as I can

> remember (but I may be wrong (but I have read things like that so

many times

> (as far as I can remember, I should write, again :)))), there was

a time

> when Chinese had a certain influence on the Japanese culture and

language

> (e.g. Kanji and so on, 'right?), therefore it is quite probable

that the way

> of borrowing was Chinese > Japanese, and not vice versa.
>
> I hope I have answered your question a little. If the word

means "4" &

> "death" in both languages, the word being a loan is, in my view,

the only

> posssibilitiiieeeyeah...
>

Japanese does take one series of counting numbers from Chinese I
believe.

Best Regards
Andrew