--- In
cybalist@yahoogroups.com, enlil@... wrote:
> Me:
> > My point is that endings like *-pa and *-ya aren't "participle"
> > endings to begin with in Uralic.
>
> Miguel:
> > And this "point" is based on what?
>
> I mean to say that you're trying to make it seem that because *-pa
is
> tacked onto a verb stem that it somehow makes it something other
than a
> verb, yet this is not always the case... based on the very same
language
> we're talking about.
>
> Pronominal endings can follow *-pa, or whatever other extension,
so it's
> clear that it in itself does not make a verb something else.
That's not
> its primary function. So you _claim_ that a noun with possessive
> endings became a verb or something to that effect but it's
unnecessary
> conjecture.
>
> Like I said, these endings are parallel and related to the
extensions
> we see in IE. I betcha that the *-pa ending is derived from a verb
stem
> like *pu- from ProtoSteppe *bu, which is where IE *bHeu- "to
become"
> would derive from. Starting out as an inchoative marker, it would
be
> natural for it to later be used for the present tense.
>
>
I am only slightly familiar with Estonian so let me talk a little
about Finnish, which after all was the same language about a 1000
years ago.
It seems to me that the Estonian p(a) is equivalent to Finnish v.
Kirjoittaa, to write (Estonian kirjuttada). From the Finnic noun
kirja, originally meaning, mark, symbol, ornament
hän kirjoittaa, he writes or kuka kirjoittaa, who writes.
he kirjoittavat, they write or ketkä kirjoitavat, who write.
Type I particple, active, nominative,
sing. kirjoittava
plur. kirjoittavat
The Finnish participle is inflected for type (1, 2, or 3) for voice,
case and number. The case markers are placed on three possible
stems plus the nominative. I will only expand the first example for
more cases than the standard 3 stem cases.
Type 1 Active Sing
Nom. kirjoittava
Gen. kirjoittavan
Ess. kirjoittavana
Part. kirjoittavaa
Trans. kirjoittavaksi
Innes. kirjoittavasa
Elat. kirjoittavasta
Illat. kirjoittavahan
Ades. kirjoitavalla
Abla. kirjoitavalta
Alla. kirjoitavalle
Abes. kirjoitavatta
Comi. kirjoittavaneen
Inst. (no sing)
Plural
Nom. kirjoittavat
Gen. kirjoittavien
Ess. kirjoittavina
P+oth kirjoittavia
Passive Sing.
N. kirjoitettava
G. kirjoitettavan
E. kirjoitettavana
P+ kirjoitettavaa
Passive Plur
N. kirjoitettavat
G. kirjoitettavien
E. kirjoitettavina
P+ kirjoitettavia
It sure looks to me like the 'v' marks the type 1 participle.
Let me switch to 'istua', to sit for type 2.
Active sing.
N. istunut
G. istuneen
E. istuneena
P+ istunutta
Type 2 seems to be marked with an 'n' instead of 'v'
Type 3
Active Sing.
N. istuma
G. istuman
E. istumana
P+ istumaa
Type 3 seems to be marked with an 'm'.
I just wanted to comment on Finnish and Estonian participles. They
are not necessarily as simple as participles in English.
Peter P