Re: [tied] Re: -i, -u

On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 18:04:21 -0700 (PDT),
enlil@... wrote:

>
>Miguel:
>> The preterite, of course, is not built on the present
>> participle.
>
>Of course, you'd probably say it's built on a "preterite participle".
>Whatever. My point is that endings like *-pa and *-ya aren't "participle"
>endings to begin with in Uralic.

And this "point" is based on what? The suffix *-pV is the
present participle in Finnic and Ugric. It's a past
participle in Samoyed, but since it's also used to make the
present of semantically punctual verbs, it probably was a
present ptc. there too (e.g. Nenets m'ic' "to give", aorist
stem m'i-Na-, durative stem m'i-pa- or m'i-ta-).

>They are modal endings

They occur in the indicative, so there's nothing "modal"
about them.

>attached to
>verb stems that can mark nouns in the nude, or mark verbs with pronominal
>endings attached. That doesn't mean that the 3ps derives from a noun
>or a participle.
>
>At best, the action noun and an endingless 3ps, both with seperate
>origins, had merged. I see little distinguishing an action noun
>from the 3ps aorist in Mid IE except for *-a.

What are you talking about? Action nouns in *-tó-?

>In fact, if Proto-Boreal had developped an alergy against words ending
>in most consonants except nasals and *-t and fought against it by adding
>a vowel as I've proposed long ago to explain Uralic's syllable structure,
>then naturally action nouns formed with "participle" endings together
>with 3ps verbs that previously had ended in *-a would merge and be
>identical. This is probably why the 3ps developped *-sa out of a
>pre-existing demonstrative to avoid confusion.
>
>
>> "Having become" endingless? I see no reason whatsoever to
>> think there ever was an ending here.
>
>There was *-sa in Uralic.

As I said:

The 3rd. person pronominal marker is absent from the
preterite, the present and the conditional. It appears only
in the passive, middle, reflexive and imperative (*-sen,
*-zen > -hen, pl. *-set ~ *-zet).

The present and the preterite didn't have *-sa / *-sen in
Finnic. The pronominal "ending" was zero to begin with.

=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
mcv@...