Albanian, IE & Latin "o:" and "e:". it was (Re: [tied] Re: *aisk- '

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "alex" <alxmoeller@...> wrote:

> alex wrote:
> > Any terms from religion/church for instance?
> >
> > Alex
>
>
> I sorted up all the material I have and there is no latin "e:"

which is

> reflected as Alb. "o". The 33 pairs established by romanists as

being loans

> in Alb. from Latin and where we have a long latin "e:" are as

follow:

>
> e: > o
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> a:e:r > aer , be:stia > bishë, de:tegere > dëftoj,de:si:de:rare >

dëshiroj,

> e:sca > eshkë, fide:s > fe, quadrage:s(i)ma > kreshmã , fe:mina >

femën,

> fre:num > fre,

[AK]
Lat. a:erem (acc. case) could yileds Alb. <ajër>, even it could be
also a Greek loan, as is Latin one.
Lat. bestiam with stressed /é/ should yileds in Alb. <bishtë>, for -
shtë is very common and familiar in Albanian, so I can't see any
reason to be truncated to /-shë/. Alb. <dëftoj> seems much more to be
derived from <dictare>, for we have a rule /ct/ > /pt/ > /ft/, as we
have it in <koftor> from Latin <coctorium>. desidera:re seems
regular, due to sound-law -VDV- = -V: desiderare > desirare >
dëshiroj. For Lat. <e:sca> Alb <eshkë> I give my interpretation. Alb.
<fe> 'religion' could be from much older form <foides>, but I suspect
and I think that it is truncated form of <rrëfe> in syntagm <be e
rrëfe>, where /*bh/ and /*b/ in media becomes devoiced. <kreshmë>
seems regular, due to -VDV- = - V. <femën/femër> is a recent loan,
but until the rhotasizm was in power in Albanian, as well as
<freni/freni>.
e:riciu > iriq, cande:la > këndellë, le:ge > ligjë, mane:re >

> mënoj, misere:re > mëshiroj, place:re > pëlqej, p(o)enite:re >

pêndohem,

> *perdole:re > përdëllej, pe:(n)sum > peshoj, pe:(n)sare > peshoj
> pri:mave:ra > prendverë, prophe:ta > profet, ce:pa > qepë, are:na >

rânë,

[AK]
About Lat. <ericius> and Alb. <iriq> we couldn't say nothing, for we
have assimilation e: - i > i - i; about <këndell> (see Pokorny, *nes-
); Lat. lex, -gis > Alb. ligj is a singularized plural: pl. legje >
ligj (cf. breg, pl. brigje, shteg, pl. shtigje); <mënoj> is bery
doubtful, for we same form as in Tosk as in Geg, so the lack of
rhotasizm is, for me, unexplainable; <mëshiroj> is a denominal of
<mëshirë>, probably from Lat. miseriam; Alb. <pëlqej> is correct, due
to metathesis of liquids l - a > a (ë) - l; Lat. poena (acc. poenam)
could be the base of Alb. pend-esë and pendohem too (Lat. /oe/ & /ai/

> Alb. /e/); <përdëllej> as <përgjëroj> are Albanian creations with

Alb. prefix për- < *pro- of Latin verbs <dole:re> and <iura:re>;
Alb. <peshë> 'stone', attested also in Albanian well-known game <gur-
a-pesh>, according to Pedersen is a cognate of Skt pamsu- 'crumbling
soil' and the like; I don't know how to derive Alb. <pranë> 'near,
close' from Lat. <prima>; propheta is a recent loan; Alb. Geg <kepë>,
Tosk <qepë> is from Lat. caepa (ae > e); Lat. arenam > ranë/rërë (see
apheresis of unstressed /a/ and regular evolution -en > Geg <-ân>,
Tosk. <-ër>.

> re:ge > regj, re:gulu > rigë, re:te > rret, excande:re > shkëndej,

secre:tu

> > shkretë, *splene:ticum > shpënetkë, te:gula > tjegullë, vale:re
> vëjej,
> *ve:ra > verë
> vene:num > vner

[AK]
Lat. rex, -gis (acc. regem) yields indeed in Alb. regj (see above
lex, -gis). If you mean on Alb. <rigë> 'drizzle' it's from probably
Latin rigare 'id.'; Lat. rete has as output Alb. <rrjetë> (Lat.
streseed /e/ > /je/) as in tegula > tjegull; long stressed Latin /e:/
followed by liquid yields diphthong /ye/, so Lat. vale:re > Alb. vyej
(j is result of /ri/ or /lj/ in Albanian at the end of the word);
Alb. Geg v(ë)ner, Tosk. <vrer> is a loan from Lat. venenum. Other
examples: shkëndej, shkretë, shpnetkë (lack of rhotasizm) and vera
are, for me, unconvincing.

> -------------------------------------------------------------
> So, there is no "e:" > "o". The reflex of Latin "e:" appears to

be "e" or

> "i". The ending "-oj" in some verbs is the typically Alb. verbal

desinence.

[AK]
Yes, it's true and at most all loans from Latin are reshaped due to
this paragidm and reflex of Lat. long stressed /e:/, except when was
not followed from liquids, is hard to be traced.

>
> Since we are here one has to check if Latin "o:" is reflected as

Alb. "e".

> Here we will find some words where Latin "o:" appears to be

reflected once

> as "e", once as someting else. The conclusion should be seen when

we have

> all the words. Thus, let us beginn with the 34 pairs which are

established

> by romanistic school as being Latin borrowings into Albanian:
>
> o: > e
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> ratio:ne > arsye, testimo:niare > dëshmoj, docto:re > doktuer,

to:tum > dot,

> draco:ne > drangua, do:nare > dhuroj,
> falco:ne > falkue, cocto:rium > koftor, coto:neum > futue, io:hanes
> gjion,
> ho:ra herë, o:tu > hut, io:sephus > jozef
> cano:sa (avis) > kanushë, capo:ne > kapue, coro:na > kunorë, qua

ho:ra >

> kur, anto:nius > ndue, no:du > nejë, conso:lare > ngushëlloj,

ho:rae > orë,

> pavo:ne > pagua, po:mum > pêmë, *plo:pu > plëp,ro:ma:nu > rëmë,

ro:bur >

> rre, ro:bur > rrobull
> sanito:su > shëndoshë, terrae mo:tu > tërmet, temo:ne > timue,

timo:re >

> tmer, o:rdine > urdhër, o:rare > uroj
> sco:ria > zgjyrë
> -------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> So, that is the lexical material one has. we have as follow:
> o: > y, u , o, e
>
> That cannot be. That is too much for being true thus one has here

to make up

> his mind about. A possibility is we have to deal with loans which

happened

> in several historical times, or we have here false pairs. Since we

know IE

> "o:" yelded "e" in Alb. , I suggest a good way is to take all the

Latin

> words where we have an Latin "o:" and the output in Alb. is "e". So

we have:

> ho:ra > herë, no:du >nejë, po:mum > pemë, *plo:pu > plëp, ro:manu >

rëmë,

> robur > rre, terrae m:otu > tërmet, timo:re > tmer.
>
> From these 8 words where apparently we have an Latin "o:" >

Alb. "e", common

> with Rom. are the words:
>
> Latin / Alb / Rom
> ------------------
> ho:ra, herë, oarã
> no:du, neje, nod
> po:mum, pemë, pom
> *plo:pu, plëp, plop
> ro:manu, rëmë, rumân
>
> for "terrae mo:tu" I have my doubts since for "earth quacke" there

is Rom.

> "cutremur" & "tremura" where Alb. word "tërmet" can derive from a

root as

> "*trem-".
>
> So, the questions for me here is if the change of IE "o:" and

IE "e:" to

> Alb. "e", "o" happened in the same period of time? Yes or no, how

can we

> verify this?
>
> Alex

[AK] Except in Alb. <herë> from Lat. ho:ram and in terrae mo:to >
Alb. tërmet, all other examples, for me, are suspicious.

Konushevci