Re: [tied] The PIE genitive again

Miguel:

> 1) In the personal pronouns, the genitive is related to the
> accusative, the difference being one of accent (*m(m)é ~
> *éme/*méne/*méme; *twé ~ *téwe; *swé, *séwe).

The genitive isn't "related" to the accusative in the pronominals.
Rather these forms are the "oblique" of their nominatives because
their paradigms were simpler than in the nouns.

> 2) In the other pronouns, the endings are *-esyo and *-osyo
> (the latter is also the thematic ending).

Taken from the nominal thematic genitive singular.

> 3) In ordinary nouns, the ending is *-os, *-es, *-s.

The original genitive, found in athematic nouns.

> It stands to reason that the situation of the personal
> pronouns is the oldest one.

This doesn't stand to reason necessarily. It's one of many options
available at first glance. The personal pronouns also show a lot of
innovations.

> This adjectival suffix was **-si-.

On the other hand, we can do away with the artificial "adjective"
category altogether and derive IE adjectives from genitival nouns
in eLIE.

> When added to the athematic oblique in **-a, the result was
> **-asi,

Obviously since we have *wednos < *wat:an-asa, that can't be right.

Your theory would predict **wedens which just doesn't exist. The
rule is that *-a- is introduced between a consonant-ending stem and
the ending (in early IndoTyrrhenian). This fully explains the
pattern that we later see in IE.

> The expected thematic forms are *-osyos, *-osyom, etc.

When will we drop this fantasy? We don't need to theorize this idle
concoction! The application of *-yo was to differentiate the genitive
from the nominative. That's it. Not to differentiate anything else. So
we only find *-yo where we find it -- in the genitive singular.

> The use of similar adjectival formations based on *-(e/o)lo- (Lydian,
> Hittite genitive of the personal pronouns) and *-iyo- (Luwian, Lycian)
> shows that this was no isolated phenomenon.

Actually, the connection with Tyrrhenian remains. While you pursue the
adjectival theory, it's looking to me like there was a dying *l-dative
in pre-IE. That would explain some forms with *-l like *saxwl "sun".
The *-l would convey a transformative meaning.


= gLeN