Re: [tied] Re: Fibulas Almgren group VI

--- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

> > > >
> > > >
> > > (Torsten) On the contrary. If Almgren VI is
> found on
> > the
> > > Crimea, at Rostov-on-
> > > the-Don and in the Caucasus in the kingdom of
> Vani
> > > that matches well
> > > with a united Asir-Vanir people later moving
> into
> > > Nortern Europe.
> >
> > GK: Well according to Snorri the Vanir lived
> on
> > the lower Don and the Aesir east of them.
>
>(Torsten) No. According to Snorri, the Vanir lived on

the

> lower Don and the
> Aesir east of the Don, not of the Vanir. They might
> have lived on
> different stretches of the river.

****GK: Again, that's Torsten, not Snorri. Snorri only
states of the Vanir that they lived "on" the Don. The
Aesir were not supposed to live "on" the Don, but
"east" of the Don, and thus east of the Vanir.*****

>
>
> >(GK)He knows
> > nothing about a "kingdom of Vani" "in the
> Caucasus".
> > That is your theory.
>
>(Torsten) True. But remember that Snorri notes that
> brother-sister marriage was
> permitted among the Vanir, but not among the Aesir.
> Herodotus thinks
> that the fact that brother-sister marriage was
> permitted among the
> Colchidians and the Egyptians alone of all peoples
> shows that the
> former came from Egypt. The kingdom of Vani was the
> old Colchis.
> That's a pretty distinctive trait.

*****GK: This only shows that there was no historical
population practicing this on the Don. And is
therefore an additional argument in favour of
dismissing Snorri's fanciful account. BTW on this
approach, there is no reason to seek the Aesir in the
steppes "east " of the Don, since they supposedly had
cremation burials, which was not characteristic of the
populations of that area.******

>
>
>
> >(GK) As I've already said any number
> > of times, you can't just pick bits and pieces out
> of
> > Snorri's account and reshuffle the lot according
> to
> > your liking.
>
>
> >Either there is archaeological and
> > historical backing for Snorri's tale or there
> isn't.
> > There isn't.====
>
> (Torsten) Is that an example of your reasoning?

*****GK: It's my conclusion. The evidence for it has
been offered at nauseam. But your disingenuous
question is certainly typical of your method of
"argumentation".****

>
>
>
>
> >As a corollary point.
>
> To the above?

*****GK: In further comment on your own claim.*****

>
> >By the time of
> > Almgren VI, the territories around the lower Don
> and
> > in the Crimean interior were predominantly Alanic.
> So
> > is that your most recent reshuffle? That the "Odin
> > people" were cultural Alans? But what evidence do
> you
> > have for the arrival of substantial numbers of
> > cultural Alans in Germany in the 2nd c. (there is
> none
> > for your earlier preferred date of the mid- 1rst
> c.
> > BC). Nothing in history and archaeology "matches
> well
> > with a united Asir-Vanir people later moving into
> > Northern Europe".
>
> (Torsten) For one thing, there's the Sarmatian

ring-pommeled

> swords in Vimose
> on Fyn, which you dismissed as a "stray find".

*****GK: Quite. These swords do not prove your claim.
They are not part of the inventory of an identifiably
Sarmatian gravesite.*****

>
>
>
>
> >(GK) You keep repeating this, shuffling
> > and reshuffling poor old Snorri. But when asked
> for
> > evidence, you seem unable to produce anything at
> all.
> > Almgren VI is not associated with a specific
> cultural
> > group. The appearance of such fibulae in widely
> > different contexts is the best possible argument
> > against some identifiable people migrating.
>
>(Torsten) I wonder what archaeological remains a

migratory

> avalanche would
> leave behind, if it wasn't a number of similar
> objects appearing in
> widely different contexts?

******GK: Something more than scattered and
disconnected finds which may be explained as trade
objects or war booty.*****

(Torsten) With that type of

> argument, future
> archaeologist would be able to decree that there was
> no Middle
> Eastern immigration to Europe in the late 20th
> century, since Middle
> Eastern objects will be found in Europe in widely
> differing contexts.

*****GK: I don't think so. There is plenty of
additional evidence, both archaeological and
historical to assist latter day investigators.*****

>
> >When a
> > people migrates it leaves signs other than just
> > fibulae: gravesites with specific inventories,
> > settlements (sometimes).
>
> (Torsten) Mention some Hunnic settlements in Europe.

*****GK: The Huns were nomads. You didn't know
this?*****

(Torsten) Mention

> traits about
> Hunnic gravesite that allow us to identify them as
> Turkic.

*****GK: The point is that we do have many datable
Hunnic gravesites, and a great deal of additional
historical information which enables us to identify
them as basically Turkic. We have no "Odin people"
gravesites, and no reliable historical information
confirming Snorri's fanciful stories about Aesir and
Vanir.******

>
> >You are unable to provide any
> > such evidence for your mythical "Odin
> people".******
>
>
> (TOrsten) In spite of your protestations that there

is

> absolutely no connection
> between the two areas,

*****GK: I don't say that there are "absolutely" no
connections. That's what you say I say. I say that
there is no evidence to prove that these fibulae
demonstrate the migration of "Odin people" from east
of the Don into central Europe.******


(Torsten) so far I've come up with

> (early) Almgren 67/68
> in Germania and the North Pontic (although consensus
> says the
> direction is the opposite of what I'd like)

*****GK: And it is no arbitrary consensus.*****

, (Torsten) and

> Almgren type VI from
> the North Pontic becoming the ancestor of all later
> Germanic and
> provincial Roman fibulas, by reading two books on
> the subject. I
> think I'll have to concentrate on grave assemblages
> now.

*****GK: I will predict that you will find nothing to
prove your version of Snorri's fairy tale. But you
will learn a lot about current archaeological
consensus. Happy reading.******





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