Hello Piotr,
> The _oldest_ Slavic loans show s --> sh, which allows us to date
the
> change _later_ than AD 600.
I can agree with this and to add max. 50-100 years, as start
moment of s->sh. (700-1000, as Alex said, is exagerated because Alb.
s->sh had to be finished, next to remain stable for awhile, and next
to have a retraction again to s, in order to arrive to have, in
Romanian and Albanian, words as coas~a/kose: etc...and I'm not
convinced that such transitions could take less than 100
years ...based on some overlappings that I detected among Albanian
transformations...)
So I can accept that s->sh could start around 650-700AD (until
some contradictions will appear). But this moment, only show us,
when s->sh started.
All we can say, from here, is that Romanian loan (if it is a loan)
could be placed at ANY moment before that date (so even in Dacian
Times for example), and more important there is no contradiction to
consider Romanian 'a ^inghesui' or 'ghes' as substratual words.
The next indicator could be the timeframe of your supposed Alb.
j -> gj in case of this word...You said:
> But Albanian <gj> has several sources. It can derive from *s in a
> stressed syllable, from *j (as in the this case), from *g
palatalised
> before a fron vowel, _or_ from *gl. In the word we're discussing it
> never passed through the stage *gl.
First of all, of course you are right. But it is a misunderstanding
here. I wanted to say that a proto-form *gl could explain Romanian
ghe - Alb. gj (if we would have a *gl), but your proposed *j
couldn't.
This cannot be possible in my opinion because :
a) if Alb *j was already g' at the loan moment (we are before
700AD), the Romanians passed g' to g^ (Rom. 'ge') that is not the
case for this word. So we couldn't have Alb. g' at the loan moment.
b) If we still have an Albanian *j at the loan moment, this is
not possible either, because Romanians never treat *j as a
later 'ghe'.
So you need to explain the points a) and b) above, and also to
can propose a timeframe for Alb j->gj in order to check its coherence
with s->sh timeframe.
Please clarify this, if possible.
Best Regards,
marius alexandru
P.S. : In fact we have a problem to explain a Romanian 'ghe' at
that moment of time from Albanian, not only from an Alb. *j but from
all other Albanian possible sources (g', s in stressed syllable) with
exception of *gl.
In other words, I don't know any Romanian 'ghe' to arrive from
a source other than an older *gl (of course I talk here about the old
words, before the Slavic loans).
--- In
cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski
<piotr.gasiorowski@...> wrote:
> 09-05-2004 19:02, alexandru_mg3 wrote:
>
> > Yes I know, but this means also before ( or latest during) the
> > first Slavic Loans ...because during the Slavic loans we have s-
>s
> > both in Romanian or Albanian.
> >
> > So we are here even before Alb . s->sh have been started, that
> > means somewhere before 600 AC.
> > This means that the Romanian loan (if it is a loan) has to be
> > borrowed before this date. (and it could be just before but more
> > probable long before...for this reason the substratual theory fit
> > better in my opinion).
>
> The _oldest_ Slavic loans show s --> sh, which allows us to date
the
> change _later_ than AD 600.
>
> > The second issue that you have is to explain next today Alb. G'
for
> > Romanian 'ghe' (knowing that we are somewhere before 600AC).
> >
> > A proto-form that we know for that period is:
> > Proto *gl - Rom. gl' (later Rom. ghe) - Alb. gj
> >
> > But you didn't indicate a proto-form *gl...
> >
> > On the other hand, a proto-form : *g'e would give toRom. ge
(g^e)
> > (see Latin Words)
> >
> > So trying to locate in time an Albanian G' for a Romanian 'ghe'
> > both of them not derived from a proto-form *gl seems difficult to
be
> > done in Roman Times...
>
> But Albanian <gj> has several sources. It can derive from *s in a
> stressed syllable, from *j (as in the this case), from *g
palatalised
> before a fron vowel, _or_ from *gl. In the word we're discussing it
> never passed through the stage *gl.
>
> Piotr