Re: [tied] The disappearance of *-s -- The saga continues

From: Miguel Carrasquer
Message: 31894
Date: 2004-04-13

On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 00:28:15 +0000, elmeras2000
<jer@...> wrote:

>--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Miguel Carrasquer <mcv@...> wrote:
>[JER:]
>> >You can always imagine that the facts of the language are non-
>> >original and invent some other language and explain that instead.
>[MCV:]
>> I'm not inventing anything. Everybody knows that the
>> acc.pl. comes from *-m plus *-s. Isn't it obvious?
>
>Yes, that's why I want the *-s to be there, while I observe you
>pulling it off.

No. I'm adding it.

>> What we find is an ins.pl. in *-o:ys, which _could_ mean
>> that the "plural" *-s _did_ have a lengthening effect, and
>> an acc.pl. in *-o:ms which _could_ mean the same thing. So,
>> unless you can show convincingly that those possibilities do
>> not apply, I wouldn't exclude them from consideration.
>
>If the acc.pl. contained a lengthening sibilant we could not have
>forms like *kWet-ur-m.s (Ved. catúras, Lith. ke~turis), but would
>have to have something ending in *-wor-m.s . There are no acc.pl.
>forms of this structure, ergo its *-s did not lengthen.

Doesn't follow. I could reconstruct *kWet-wér-ms >
(lengthening, zero grade) kWtwé:rms > (shortening before
CCC) *kWtwérms > (*wé > *ú) *kW(e)túrm.s > catúras.
A form like Arm. c^`ors (*kWét-wor-ms) represents the
analogical type of acc.pl., which is simply the acc.sg. +
*-s.

Your analysis of thematic acc.pl. *-o:ns as coming from
*-oy-ms looks quite attractive from this point of view. The
acc.pl., like the gen.pl., must be built on the oblique
plural base, which is *-oy in the thematics, *-bh(i)/*-m in
the athematics.

Before the addition of the plural marker *-s(W), we would
have had:

athematic (pl.obl. base *-(a)bhi- > *-(V)m, *-bhi-):

gen/acc.pl. *-om ~ *-ém ~ *-m
dat.pl. *-bhi-ó
loc.pl. *-bhí
ins.pl. *-bhi-ét (= *-bhít)
abl.pl. *-bhí-ot

thematic (pl.obl. base *-a-(a)ti- > *-oy):

gen./acc.pl. *-oy
dat.pl. *-oy-o
loc.pl. *-oy
ins.pl. *-oy-ét (= *-oyít)
abl.pl. *-oy-ot

The addition of *-s(W) to the acc.pl. gave *-ms, while the
gen.pl. remained as *-om. The other oblique forms, except
the loc.pl., are regular: *-bhiós(W), *-bhíts > *-bhi(:)s,
*-bhíots [= *-bhiós]. The loc.pl. would have merged with
the ins.pl., so it was reshaped as loc.sg. *-0 + *-sW + *-i
=> *-sú.

In the thematic paradigm, where *-oy was in the process of
acquiring nominative value, the acc.pl. borrowed the ending
*-ms from the athematics, resulting in *-oyms > *-o:ns. The
gen.pl. borrowed athematic unextended *-m, resulting in
*-oym > *-o:m (also *-om). Another method was the addition
of gen.sg. *-(e)s, giving *-oy-(e)s + *-o(:)m = pronominal
*-oyso(:)m. The oblique forms are regular: *-oy-o-s(W) [by
analogy with the athematics also *-oy-bhi-os], *-oy-sW-i >
*-oysu, *-oy-it-s > *-oyis > *-o:ys, *-oyots > *-oyos ( or
*-oybhios).


=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
mcv@...