Re: [tied] Whence Grimm?

--- tgpedersen <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

> > GK: The argument seems to run thus (there are
> > many sources for it; I have relied on the more
> recent
> > Polish, Russian, and Ukrainian literature):
> >
> > The source of Germanicism in the east is the area
> of
> > the Jastorf culture which existed in North Germany
> and
> > Southern Scandinavia from the mid-first millennium
> BC.
>
> (T)Correction: From Thuringia to Jutland and Fyn.

Not

> Sj�lland. Not the
> Scandinavian peninsula.

*****GK: Shchukin and Kokowski consider Denmark to be
"southern Scandinavia".*****

>
>
> >(GK) Many Jastorf groups migrated eastward

beginning

> ca.
> > 300 BC, sometimes in conjunction with La Tene
> groups
> > (Celtic) sometimes independently. They mixed with
> > "local culture" groups there, and after a period
> of
> > co-existence contributed to the emergence of new
> > cultures most of which in the progress of time
> became
> > preponderantly Germanic as to language.
>
> (T) Evidence? Not that I'm absolutely opposed to

that;

*****GK: I don't see how you could be even
"relatively" opposed to the view that in their later
phases Przeworsk, Oksywie, and Poeneshti-Lukashovka
were preponderantly Germanic as to language. We are
talking about proto-Vandals, proto-Goths, and
Bastarnians in the age of Caesar.*****

> (T)some of Kuhn's
> supposed Nordwestblock words appear in North
> Germanic, which is
> difficult to understand if they belong in the
> Nordwestblock
> geographic area, since the invasion into Scandinavia
> by Germanic
> speakers shouldn't have brought these words with
> them then.
>
>
>
> >(GK) Przeworsk was
> > one such culture. The early complex mix involved
> Celts
> > (La Tene) Germanics (Jastorf) and "locals" (Late
> > LUsatian, Pomorian etc.)of uncertain IE speech. By
> the
> > period of the Roman Empire, Przeworsk can be
> > associated with the historical Vandals.
>
> (T) That matches with the fact that the northern
> province of Jutland,
> north of the Limfjord which has evidence of
> Oder-Warthe intrusion is
> named Vendsyssel < Wendl� syss�l, the inhabitants
> are called
> vendelboer.
>
> >(GK) The claim is
> > not that P. is THE source of Germanic culture. It
> is A
> > Germanic culture. So when P. backflows into
> Jastorf
> > (as you say) it is as though one Germanic culture
> > mixed with another.
>
> (T) According to Peschel and Jan Derk Boosen: "Das
> Oder-Warthe-gebiet in
> der Przeworsk-Kultur w�hrend der ausgehenden
> vorr�mischen Eisenzeit
> und der �lteren Kaiserzeit" the Oder-Warthe elements
> in Jastorf
> appear foreign. But we are quibbling over words. You
> are stressing
> the Jastorf roots of the Przeworsk culture, I the
> eastern ones.
>
> Besides, with the merging of two "Germanic" cultures
> we would expect
> a number of words in Germanic that appeared similar,
> but were not
> identical.

*****GK: The "merging" of cultures is not always
accompanied by the retention of such words.******

(T)That is not the case, apart from some of

> the supposed
> Nordwestblock words.
>
>
> >(GK) It is believed that the earliest
> > attested name of a Germanic group in the east is
> that
> > of the SCIRI (Skiroi of the Olbian inscriptions).
> This
> > name was earlier analyzed on Cybalist. The date
> for it
> > is "sometime prior to 230 BC".
>
> (T) Now that was a bad tactical move. Once you

mention

> the Skiri, you'll
> bring up the Bastarnae, who, according to the
> contemporary sources,
> were Skiri mixed with Sarmatians.

*****GK: I think you're getting confused here. There
are no "contemporary sources" which state that the
Bastarnians are "Skiri mixed with Sarmatians". Perhaps
you are thinking of Tacitus, who does point out that
the Bastarnians are "Germans" who have mixed with
Sarmatians, but Tacitus was hardly a contemporary of
the early Bastarnians. My view (subject to correction)
is that the Bastarnians, originally, were Skiri
"mixed" with Galatae (and probably others, but the G.
and S. were dominant). It is interesting that both
Skiri and Galatae (as groups functioning together)
disappear from the sources with the first note about
the Bastarnians (early 2nd c. BC). Perhaps the Celtic
element was primary in the first generations (sources
note that Bastarnians at that period were "Gallic" in
speech) but by Caesar's time it was the Germanic
component which asserted itself as linguistically
primary. Possibly the unknown source of Pliny's
catalogus gentium east of the Vistula (Sarmatians,
Venedae, Sciri, "Hirri") saw the latter two as
components of the Bastarnae (if "Hirri" could be
construed as pertaining to the Germanicized Celts,
still the "lords" of the complex). The Bastarnians
apparently disappear north of the Danube in the late
3rd c. AD But perhaps it is only that Germanicized
Celtic component which was moved into Roman territory.
Those who remained resumed the appellation "Skiri",
and were an important people in the pre-Attilanic
Hunnic complex. And their story ends with Odovacar
(Odoacer). Much of this is speculative of course, but
it is one way of explaining the "missing" Skiri
between 200 BC and the early 5th c. AD (except for the
mentin in Pliny).****

(T)This is of course

> not an
> archaeological argument; don't hesitate to indicate
> if you feel it is
> inappropriate.

*****GK: You asked if one can find links between
archaeological and historical evidence. I think we
can.****

>
> (T) BTW the names 'Sciri' and 'Bastarnae' are good
> evidence that these
> peoples spoke some type of Germanic. And the word
> 'saddle' (PGmc
> *sa�ula, cf Slavic sedlo, Latin sella < *sed-la)
> which because it is
> different from what we'd expect in an inherited
> Germanic word (cf.
> Geraman Sattel "saddle", Sessel "seat") must be a
> loan. The /a/
> for /e/ indicates Indo-Iranian, the retained /s-/
> instead of
> Iranian /h-/ indicates Indian (of which some
> languages still remained
> at the Sea of Azov),

****GK: As well as in the Crimean interior, and
perhaps as far west as the Dnister/Boh area, if we are
to believe Trubachov and others. I'll leave it to the
linguists to evaluate your theory as to the loan.*****

and although Classical Sanskrit

> has /r/ for /l/,
> Eastern Prakrits show that some Indic dialects might
> have had /l/.
> The Oder-Warthe intrusive aristocratic graves in
> Jastorf occasionally
> have spurs, so they must have been a mounted warrior
> caste.
>
>
> Torsten
>
>
>

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