[tied] Re: Andere

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Miguel Carrasquer <mcv@...> wrote:

> On Mon, 29 Mar 2004 13:58:19 +0000, tgpedersen
> <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >> >Vennemann proposes a Proto-Vasconic *grandi > (h)andi was

loaned

> >into
> >> >Romance (grand-) and Germanic (great, gross-).
> >>
> >> That's completely impossible.
> >
> >But, but! Vennemann has writen a long, fine article about it!

Which

> >part is impossible, the PVasc. > Basque or the PVasc. > Latin /
> >Germanic?
>
> PVasc > Basque. Vennemann, if I recall, argues that gr-
> becomes r- (elimination of initial clusters) and then r- > 0
> (elimination of initial r-).
>
> Of course it's true that Basque does not allow initial
> clusters, nor initial r-. But the way Basque deals with
> that in the cases of gr- and r- is by (1) inserting a vowel
> (Lat. granu > Bq. garau), and (2) prefixing a vowel (Lat.
> rege(m) > Bq. errege). Nothing we know about Basque
> indicates that /g/ was ever deleted in the cluster /gr-/,
> nor that /r-/ was ever deleted when word-initial.
>

True, it's speculation on Vennemann's part. He is aware of Basque's
way of dealing with loans, but ascribes it to a later period (I
think). He argues that for Basque to have the constraint on initial
consonant clusters, it might at one time in the past have had rules
that removed them. Whether the result is worth the extra machinery to
be assumed is a matter of taste. But it is nice to get some more
flesh and bones on those ephemeral languages of the North West.

Torsten